Absent Dad can remove kids from school without your permission.

[FullySwindonian]

Unbeknownst to me, the children's absent father (currently of two years) can just turn up to their school with copies of their birth certificates and his own ID, remove them from the premises, drive 180 miles back home with them, put them into a new school, and apply for sole residency.

The school can't stop him unless I have a court order specifically preventing him. They can ring me and stall him, but that's all.

And there's nothing the police can do to stop him UNLESS the children are distressed or I can PROVE he's a risk to their wellbeing.

All I can do is go to court (considering they shut at 2pm and it's in a town 45 minutes away and I don't drive, hard enough...) and apply for an Emergency Probibited Steps Order (PSO) for the police to knock on his door and retrieve them.

That's assuming he's at home, which he won't be because his house isn't habitable. He could be anywhere. He could have applied for their passports and took them abroad.

How much resource will the police plough into finding him under a court under? It's not even classed as Abduction so there will be no prioritising.

It took my Mum nearly a year to get me back again when I was abducted aged 18 months by my bio Dad and his Mum, and that was back in the late Sixties when I don't even know if Parental Responsibility existed.
So you can see I'm anxious, to make an understatement.

My lawyer told me I can apply for a non-emergency PSO but it will kick start a contact/access process (and cost me around £3k as I'm not entitled to Legal Aid now (no 'recent' DV or history of child abuse on his part). It won't cost him anything.

So by being totally absent for two full years, then out of the blue sending birthday cards and Facebook friend requests, their father had circumvented both my access to Legal Aid, and superseded the DV history because after two years absence, he will not even be granted contact centre supervision, they can be court ordered to go STRAIGHT TO HIM, despite the fact I have evidence that his aim is to remove the chikdren from my care by whatever means neccessary, even lying under oath, such is the state of his vindictiveness.

Now none of his intentions I can validate. It's all surmise in my head based on my knowledge of how he plays games, along with an attempted 'off the record' suggestion from my lawyer that he 'seems to have waited for the two year absence to initiate (the above mentioned) procedures'.

Summarily, I can either call his bluff and ignore his current actions, hoping that he'll continue to be absent, and myself and children can carry on as before.

Or, I can take precautions by obtaining a non-emergency PSO to prevent him removing the children from school.
Simultaneously to initiate a Residence Order (Custody/Sole Residence/Chikd Arrangememt Order/whatever it's called now ... the law on this changed in April 2014) which will be a double edged sword though :
It means that I will be granted sole residency so he can't just remove them from school without my permission or apply for them to live with him, but it also means a contact/access order may be granted so he gets to see them anyway.

Before anyone has a go for me seemingly ignoring the 'what's best for the children' aspect. I left him when they were 4 weeks and 3 years old after seven years of the worst kinds of DV. He'd visited them around 6 times after that, accommodated at my house. He stopped visiting them when I stopped accommodating him and paying the fuel cost. There's been zero contact for two years until he sent a birthday card written like a document for the court's benefit and a Facebook friend request to myself and everyone on my Friendlist declaring literally 'I'm The Daddy' in his username, uploading in one go hundreds of public viewable photos of the children which give the overall photo montage impression he's spent years with them, as a family unit, when in fact he's spent about 6 weeks with them since I left 5 years ago.

Anyone with any similar experience of obtaining a PSO for this purpose, or just your views or advice on this development and dilemma?

Apologies for the length. Having spoken to my lawyer yesterday I'm just posting for more opinions as the outlook seems bleaker now :/

Yikes. An essay! Sorry about the length.

if eh hasn't seen t em for two years surely the children wont recognize him?
and surely they old enough now ie at least five to say to teacher "I don't know this man" ?
any school would be silly to release a child into the care of an adult regardless of papers when the child is saying no I don't know him?

or do you think they would say hello daddy lovely to see you ?

ok so one is eight - you can certainly talk to him about it and he can express a view to a teacher. if you think he would go willingly with dad then that is another matter.....

Yes, they'd remember him. They're just 7 and nearly 5. They only last saw him 2.5 years ago. They have a photo of him somewhere in the house too.

If the father can provide ID and proof of parenthood, yes, they're allowed to turn up at take them from school. The police nor the school can prevent this. I have already spoken to both about it.

I have always thought it is wrong for the PWC to have no rights to be informed if the NRP rocks up at the school gates to remove their DC.

Unless it is an emergency, or the school request a parent picks their child up, why can't schools and nurseries ask for 24 hours notice to remove a child?
This would drastically reduce the chances of this happening wouldn't it?

This situation is one of the main reasons I applied for residency through the courts as well as contact which imo isn't worth the paper it's written on

Why would a residence order prevent him from picking the DC up from school without informing you? Was that part of the changes in April 2014?

Uuf, I live in Mexico and have for a very long time, just a bit stunned at the lack of protection against abduction in the UK.

Legally you can't take a child across a Mexican border without either proving that you are the sole guardian or producing a document from the other guardian giving permission for the child to leave or enter the country and when you enrol a child in school, you name the people who are allowed to pick them up.

It's not much help in your current situation, but surely it is time some lobbying was done to put these basic child protection measures into place?

Cestlavie the school don't have a choice regardless of whether the op talks to the teacher, they are obliged by law.

So you think your ex would actually do it?

In my opinion you need a Residence order (or whatever it is now called) for 2 reasons...for those you have stated above but maybe even more importantly so that you can appoint guardians to take over residence in the event of your untimely death. Without this the children would have to go straight to live with their father...which would be unwise with such a history of DV.

There is no limitation on the length of time DV can be taken into account for...CAFCASS will still look at welbeing and wishes and feelings and evidence from the past (I've just been through this). Also the court do not HAVE to order contact (although the judge may choose to go down that route). In any case your ex sounds like he would be up for the fight but not actually for the contact.

I hope it is all just bluff and bluster on his part....

this may help www.alternativefamilylaw.co.uk/en/international/preventing-childabduction.htm

Well I don't think many primary schools would release a child into the care of an adult they'd never met and that the children haven't seen for years. Definitely not without ringing you so he's not going to get very far I wouldn't think.
Have you any reason to believe this is going to happen?
This does sound crap.
Get started on the legal stuff to do whatever you can to keep them safe.
If there was DV involved would they not be considered at risk? Therefore unlikely to be granted contact?
Sorry, no experience whatsoever myself.

The primary school DD goes to probably wouldn't know XP if he jumped up and down in front of them, but even before DD began at the school, they made it very clear that if a parent with PR arrives at school to remove their child, so long as they have evidence that they are the parent in question, it is not up to the schools discretion.
They can attempt to stall things, ring me and hope I get to school quickly, but if XP insists on taking DD there and then, it is not their decision to make to hold onto her.
They have to abide by the law of the land.
The law gives absent fathers with PR the same responsibilities as mother's with care.
Just as the mother can pick her children up, even if she has to wait until the child is ready, so does the father.
Ime, the school would rather not get involved in hostilities between separated parents so are more likely to follow the law, to the letter if need be.
The school don't have a leg to stand on.

A residence order (Child arrangements order stating who the child lives with) would not stop a child being removed from school, it does not overwrite PR, it would have to be a prohibitive steps order.

If he took them abroad without your permission, that absolutely would be abduction. If you are afraid this will happen, read this

but there are also child protection issues.... handing over a child to a stranger is daft. if a dad appears out of nowhere I am sure a head teacher can consider child protection issues.

of course if it's a parent who the child sees form time to time then no they cant do anything.

You need to speak to your children's school and see what they can do to prevent this from happening.

I'd say that before DD started school, she was just another kid and you were just another parent - now that they know you and know your children, it may be worth talking to them and looking at your situation on a personal rather than protocol level?

You've got it about right.

A court order doesn't override a PR unless the terms of the order specifically say why.

Which means any parent with PR can remove a child from a school, etc. without the permission of the other. You can do it, so can he.

If he's doing this sort of thing and you want to stop him you need a court order that says he's not to do it. Of course, you'll be using the Welfare Checklist as your guide.

The police WILL take action if you have an Emergency Protection Order but not unless. A parent with PR cannot abduct' their own child - it is a civil matter not a criminal one. Contact the police without one and their reaction may range from telling you to take it to court' (which is the right response) and maybe checking the children are OK and that is it.

If i genuinely thought this was likely i'd move and tell only trusted family where i'd gone with the dcs.

If my ex moved (taking my DS with her) and only told trusted family where she'd gone I'd issue a Seek and Find Application to the court and they'd then find themselves in front of a judge who would ask them where he is.

Bump for more opinions.

If you took no legal action would he be likely to start any action himself?

Getting a PSO & residency order with supervised contact only up to the age of 18 only was surprisingly easy - took 3 hearings as two temp orders were granted for a few months each first.

The biggest hurdle was the cost. No history of DV, plenty of history of being a flake and a risk that he'd take DS out of the country. It'll come up in court that he doesn't actually KNOW his kids now as they change so much in 2 years that he'll have missed a LOT and those gaps in his knowledge will become glaringly obvious as judges aren't stupid. he'll also be expected to explain his absence if he tries to pull the loving Daddy act. School can support you by stating that they've never met the man or heard the children recount any activities with daddy, the GP can confirm you are the only one who has attended medical appointments and so on. Friends and family can produce sworn affiavits to confirm he's not been present, and any impact he had on the kids.

The DV issue means it may be worth having a quick chat with SS - as they are likely to be able to advise you on the most sensible way to proceed.

I'm not on facebook but if you get rid of your account will it remove your pictures? You should deffo make the account private and block him at a minimum. None of those photos will include him if he wasn't around. In future send photos by private email. I'm sure other MNetters will be able to advise here.