What can I do if exp doesn't bring ds back?

[tygertygerburningbright]

I'll try to keep this brief..

Exp and I do not get along. Split before ds was born, and for about a year and a half now he has had access. Currently has five nights a fortnight with ds.

As it's the holidays we agreed a few extra days, and he was due to pick up ds tomorrow and return him on Wednesday. But tonight he told me he was swapping the days and would take him Wednesday to Tuesday instead.

I said no, as it's too short notice. Not only have I made plans for this weekend but I have made plans for ds to see family/friends over the holidays on my days so it would be a pain for a lot of people to rearrange etc on the whim of one man.

He was adamant that I had no choice but I stuck to my guns and then he sent me a disturbingly pleasant message to say he would in fact collect ds tomorrow as agreed.

Now my concern is this. He has repeatedly threatened not to give ds back when he has him if I don't agree to extra time etc. He has always brought him back eventually but it is horrendous during the time that I don't think he will. Ds is 3.5 by the way.

Exp says that because there is no residency order if he keeps ds I would have to take him to court to get him back, which could take months. And at I wouldn't be able to see ds during that time.

I'm worried that not only is he right about that, but that him suddenly right in the middle of an argument changed his tune back to the original plan means that he might try to do it this time.

Anyone know if there is anything I could do? I've half a mind not to let ds go but seeing as I kicked up a fuss about him changing the days I can hardly so at myself can I?

Sorry if this is rambley and long. I can't bear the thought of ds not coming home.

Wow sorry that's not brief at all!

Gosh that's awful, no advice or experience but he should like an utter cockwomble and needs reminding who should be at the centre of this!

If you are the resident parent, the police will go and pick him up and bring him back to you.

My advice - try and speak to someone on the non-emergency number. I did this when I was worried about Ex doing the same with DS. They assured me that if it happened they would help.

I don't know anything about the legalities but I really, really think you should get some legal advice.

I think that ultimately you need to see a solicitor and get an agreement drawn up. I think you are right to worry. I think I would write/email him to say that you are concerned about his previous threats not to return your son, and that you need a response from him, in writing, that he will return him on the Tuesday as planned and that he has no wish to withhold your son's contact from you longterm, or to keep your son at any time not agreed by you both. Failing that I would not hand him over, and book a solicitor's appt asap, even if just for a free half hour.

Yeah. My mother has kindly agreed to pay for any legal advice or court fees so I think I do need to get this formalised.

He won't send me anything in writing because he knows I can use it to get ds back. He's careful to make threats only over the phone or in person.

I did call 101 before about this, and they did seem very understanding but luckily exp returned ds before they had to intervene.

If there is nothing on paper from a court saying who has residency tgen police will not get involved. A parent hashim so Iif there are no welfare concerns you would then have to go to court to get him to return him.

But if you did apply to the Court for an order you can ask for it to be dealt with as an emergency that day or on short notice to him. If he says he wants the child to live with him then the Court will consider that. However, in the interim the child should be returned to you as you have been the parent with care. It's the bit about the court deciding whether or not the child should live with him in the long term that would take months, not him being returned to you IYSWIM

Right ok. I suspect he would apply to have ds live with him. But there's every chance ds would be returned to me in the meantime?

Petalsandstars I suspect you are right.

I know there are issues around it but I would record your phone calls and personal meetings. If you are being threatened then you need to protect yourself.

I would only let DS go on this occasion if you get it in writing from your Ex the exact day he is taking him and bringing him back. When I had issues of this sort with my Ex, I insisted on this and it worked.

I agree you need to insist on a written statement from him to say he agrees to return your son on Tuesday. Say that if he refuses to do this you will have to assume he may act on his previous threats not to return your son longterm and that you will not therefore allow your son to see him until a legal agreement has been drawn up. I think you need to listen to your instincts.

I hope this helps you . . I asked my solicitor the same question and got a reply earlier.

They said that basically, if the child lives with you and always has, the police (might) return them for you. However they have no real legal power to do so.

If your ex is threatening such behaviour towards you, you have every right to stop contact until he formally agrees to return him and he stops making threats to upset you. Once this is in place, unfortunately you have to "give him a chance" to behave himself. If he doesn't you can apply for an emergency court order to get him back. You can also apply for a court order to stop him doing it ever again.

My solicitor also said "Dont' be bullied". He actually has no right to insist on things if you have to cancel. It is tough luck for him if it a one off, no court in the land is going to criticise you for that . . especially if you show you have offered a reasonable alternative.

Oh, also another tip I got was to move ALL communication to email. Emails are admissable in court and will nicely capture all of his behaviour and stop him keeping it all verbal and unprovable (voice recordings are illegal unless you inform him you are recording, otherwise they can only be considered as for personal use). If he is barred from calls, and direct contact is limited to public places or with a third party involved, he would have little choice but to tow the line.

Giant and purple..you're taking bollocks...also your solicitor is telling you what you want to hear...

On the flip side this father is storing up a whole heap of potential trouble for himself should you both end up in court...

Wear it this time but if becomes a pattern then sure make the application and keep the communication non verbal and get agreements on record.

There aren't any welfare concerns so I'm wondering why most are yelling get the police involved, emergency court orders...too many people projecting their own cases.

3cooked.

Why do you think she should wait until the actual threatened action becomes a pattern? Or is carried out?

The very action of making the threat in the first place is a matter for concern.

Granted I personally wouldn't bother with the police because most of the time they i will do nothing other than ask him nicely but when someone tells you who they are and what they are capable of its usually best to listen and not place them in a situation where you just make it easy for them.

An emergency court order to return the child would be completely appropriate and proportionate if he does carry out his threat.

Your usually very anti parents using kids as weapons why so relaxed about it when it's a dad doing it?

Op give these people a call ASAP

www.childrenslegalcentre.com/

Nothing at all wrong with obtaining professional legal advice for free from a reputable source

Little bit of a bias me thinks! But I won't derail.

OP, if you genuinely think there's a chance he won't return your dc, don't do a practise run. Keep your dc at home and inform him due to the threats, contact won't be going ahead until you've had chance to get legal advice. I've seen a similar thing happen on another forum I go on and it took three weeks before the mother got to see her child. If there's a real risk that could happen, don't take the chance. If you don't think there's a real risk, carry on with the contact. Trust your gut though.

Thanks for all of your replies.

I've decided to let ds go this time, due to the fact exp hasn't specifically threatened not to return him on this occasion, just alluded to it.

However, come Monday morning I will be seeking legal advice, potentially to get residency but primarily to have our contact agreement put in writing so ds would be able to be removed from his custody should he keep him.

There will be no such thing as "residency" from 22nd April and it's unlikely you'd get a hearing before then.

3cooked

I can assure you it's not bollocks. I had an ex who was threatening, and I spoke with a solicitor, with the police and with a well known children's charity, all of whom advised that same. That the police will intervene when an NRP removes a child from home and the RP without permission - it is deemed kidnapping.

The police very helpfully said they would log the conversation I had with them (on the non-emergency number, to get advice about what might/ could happen) and would even investigate the threats if I had written (text/email) evidence as they could be deemed harassment, and that they would help if he went through with his threats.

People are not suggesting the OP acts/ does anything before he makes a move, but are saying that she should take his threats seriously, and do what she needs to to protect her child and herself from these threats.

No one is saying she shouldn't let her child go, or stop contact, but that actually putting contact on a formal footing could safeguard against this becoming an issue in the future.

Also - as my experience showed me - you can't just go round making idle threats. Why should the OP have to put up with her ex bullying and harassing her like that?

This father is not removing the son from the mothers home - by the way the mother here does not have residency, so this is not a case of kidnap abduction.

Even if there was a residency order in place with defined contact that's a breach of a court order, again not kidnap or abduction.

Unless the welfare of the child is at risk the police are unlikely to take action to return the child as its a civil matter.

Absolutely apply to the court for one of the new Child Arrangement Orders(where the child lives), but that wont give anymore protection from the police.

I know it sounds trite, but you should try and talk to him informally via mediation.

At the moment he's messing with your head, but does return your son at agreed time(?) - not reason enough I think to run to court.

Personally, I think he has a good thing going so don't know why he wants to screw that up.

The last place you two(him especially) want to be is in court, it will ratchet up the tension/conflict not to mention the cost and you may BOTH end up with an order that neither of you like.

Get him in to mediation.

No one is saying she should stop contact? Yes they have, more than once on this thread.

She needs to project her child from these threats?

Their son needs to be protected from conflict between two warring parents.

Applying to court will require you both to attempt mediation in the meantime...out of that you may get a parenting agreement that would show consent from both sides.

3cooked - funnily enough, although you don't see it, we are actually agreeing - that getting something more formal agreed between the OP and her ex is the way forward. However they choose to do that.

The question was what could the OP do if her ex doesn't bring her DS back - this was the question I asked, and the advice I got is as I described above. From numerous sources.

However - there still remains the issue that the ex should not be threatening anything, and the OP should not have to put up with this - just because contact is important doesn't mean that gives the right for one or both of the parents to abuse the other about it.

And yes, she does need to protect her child, from the situation that could occur should these threats be carried through. My DS is 3.5 and fully aware of what the routine is and where he is and when. He often knows what plans we have for when he is coming back and would be upset and or worried if things were changed last minute and we hadn't spoken. Also - there's no telling what the child may or may not witness in the ensuing period where the OP is trying to gain access to her DS, how the child may feel after lengthy seperation from his primary carer and any number of other things. These threats aren't just against the OP but involve the child as well.

OP says he has threatened her numerous times and not always stuck to agreed times. If it were me I would be seriously considering the court route (via mediation) as it sounds like there is a pattern of him showing he is not willing to keep to agreements.

OP, he is very cruel for making these threats. But he has never carried them out and for you to withhold contact I see as no different than if he did it to you.

You seem to have quite a relaxed agreement whereby you share time with your son, with you having the bulk of the time. If dad wanted to have him more, wouldn't he have gone down the official routes? I don't think he really does want more contact, or residency for himself. He's just messing with your head.

Don't listen to the hysterics of emergency orders and the like. And I second what 3x says about courts. Not nice for anyone. Very expensive. Mediation could certainly be beneficial for everyone.

Good luck