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Original poster

Can exp keep dc without my agreement?

26 replies

Baabaapinksheep · 10/12/2013 20:15

Dc are due to go and stay with exp for a night in the Xmas hols, he wants them for two nights but I only want them to go for one night. My reasons for this are: he has only seen them about once a month for an afternoon at a time in the last year (he lives quite far away); they went to stay with him for a night a couple of months ago, this was the first time for years; they will be knackered when they get back as dd1 doesn't sleep well in places she doesn't know, and if they go for 2 nights they will be coming back on the Xmas eve.

We gave agreed that they will just one for one night, but exp said he could just keep them for two nights anyway. Can he do this? What are my rights?

Dc are 4 and 5.

OP posts:
RedLondonBus · 10/12/2013 20:18

Well maybe this is the start if your dc seeing more of dad? He might be inclined to see them more from now on, sounds like he's making some effort

Don't see what is wrong with them returning on Xmas eve?

Original poster
Baabaapinksheep · 10/12/2013 20:45

Yes hopefully he will start seeing them more, I've been pushing him to see them more for years now. I just want to take things slowly rather than throwing them in at the deep end!

If they return on Xmas eve then dd1 will be exhausted for Xmas. She gets incredibly tired, if she doesn't get 12 hours sleep then it can take her days to recover.

Anyway that's beside the point, we've both agreed on one night so I just want to know if he is within his rights to keep them for two anyway?

OP posts:
cestlavielife · 10/12/2013 22:54

He has same rights as you and can do this in absence of a court order saying otherwise. If far away two nights makes more sense that one.

NomNomNom · 10/12/2013 23:05

Well, honestly, he shouldn't. He's be a bit of a bastard if he went against your agreement. But if he has PR and there is no court order, there is nothing you could do to stop him. You could call the police if he doesn't bring the DC back at the agreed time, but I doubt that they would do anything. You hear of those situations where a father just keeps the children for months - nightmare. Hmm
I'd suggest not interfering in their contact - stop suggesting they go to him, stay overnight etc. Just leave it and see what he wants when it's all up to him.

I realise that you might not have another way of getting a break, but a babysitter or mum from school taking them for an afternoon would be preferable as you know they'll stick to agreements.

I know the DC would miss him/ask about him so if he makes no contact for a while you'd need to have some sympathetic phrases prepared to explain it to them.

If he genuinely cares about them and wants to see them more, that's good. But don't try to pressure him into it if he isn't actually that bothered - it'll be better for the children and for you.

Can you pick them up after the first night to make sure they definitely come home then? Or don't send them if he's threatening to keep them, send them another day (if that's what you want).

It's not ok for him to decide the plan on his own, but legally nothing can be done at this point.

Have you had any legal advice?

lizzie479 · 10/12/2013 23:23

I want to add that although he has PR it will be frowned upon if he goes against the resident parents wishes and has the children for more nights than you have both agreed. Note it down if he does not return them and if necessary call 101 to log that your ex has gone against your agreement of one night. Also write to him with what you feel is in the kids best interests (1 night) send it recorded delivery and keep a copy. Then get a half an hours legal advice. But make sure you call him fisrt to politely ask for the children back if he holds them for the two nights. You can always put in a petition for court for £200 and it won't look good if he is going against your wishes so long as these as in the childrens best interests. I would add that tiredness etc is probably not a good enough reason to stop the children staying with their dad for two nights. So long as they want to go and are happy to stay for two nights and you have no concerns about his parenting. You need to give and take and work together so the kids can see you both. But their needs come before everything else. Don't be afraid of him!

lizzie479 · 10/12/2013 23:29

PS if he threatens to have them for two nights after only having them an afternoon a month for the past year then he is being unreasonable. He should be working with you and taking your concerns and wishes on board. If he continues to hold onto the children longer than agreed or you want him to see them in a more routine and regular fashion then consider getting a court order for contact put in place. Then there it is in black and white and you won't have to dealwith a man who sounds like he has no intention of treating you respectfully as the mother of his children. You are your childrens advocate!

Original poster
Baabaapinksheep · 11/12/2013 06:51

I have had legal advice re them just going for one night at the moment, and my solicitor said not to back down over it.

They will probably go for two nights next time they go, as long as this visit all goes well, so it's not like it will always be one night.

He is in the process of applying to court as he wants to have them to stay and thinks I'm being unreasonable by only allowing one night for now.

OP posts:
3xcookedchips · 11/12/2013 09:46

How far away does he live? Is he picking up and dropping off? The distance would be a valid reason for more than one night. It wouldn't be in your children's interests to be shuttling them between homes in a day - they'd definitely be tired then.

There must be wider issues if he has made the court application - it won't be just over this xmas period.

Has he consistently shown willingness to have them more and you have said no?

What is he been asking for before and in the court application. Have you both engaged in mediation - this would be preferable - court is really the last resort and nobody really gains other than the solicitors.

The comments from some are quite inflammatory - calling the Police etc - unless you have genuine welfare concerns then you would be wasting their time. Calling 101 - there isn't a court order so what is being logged?

Tiredness isn't a reason and if that's your only reason then you are yabu.

At the end of the day its Christmas and wouldn't this be a special treat for the kids - they are with you over the entire Christmas break after all?

You can only try to persuade/reason with him to see your point of view.

lostdad · 11/12/2013 12:35

As you both have PR and there is no residence order you have identical legal statuses.

So turn things round how would you response `Can I keep dc without my ex's agreement?'

Compromise. It's not an unreasonable proposal he's making. Would you really involve the police and the courts over this??? Confused

NomNomNom · 11/12/2013 14:13

At this age, if the children are only used to seeing their dad one afternoon a month, staying for 2 nights might not be easy for them. If their mum has been their primary caregiver all this time, they will probably miss her a lot. This could also have a negative effect on their willingness to stay with dad in the future.

Yes, if both parents have PR, theoretically you can turn the situation on its head. But you need to bear in mind what the children are used to.

And what is the point in insisting on 2 nights? Both parents have the responsibility to work together. OP really doesn't sound as if she wants to frustrate contact! So from what's been written here, the dad's got nothing to worry about.

3xcookedchips · 11/12/2013 14:59

We don't know what the OP is offering, and we don't know what the father is seeking.

Only in this instance father says 2, mother says 1...

Based on what has been written you cant make the judgement who is being reasonable/unreasonable.

Your advice involving the police is bogus.

cestlavielife · 11/12/2013 15:36

if it's three hours to get there then two nights makes more sense. it's chirstmas presumably they will do exciting xmas stuff with dad and maybe his family.

cant see any reason why not two nights really there dont appear to be welfare issues. same as kids going to stay with grandparents who usally only see them once a month. they already s tayed one night and apart from possible tiredness op does not report any ill effects.

op will miss them (but gives her time to get stuff ready for xmas...)

kids will likely be too busy and excited

lostdad · 11/12/2013 16:50

I agree re the police. It's a civil matter, not a criminal one.

If the OP called the police to report him the most they are legally able to do is to attend to see if the DC are fine. She'd most likely be advised to speak to her solicitor' or take it to court'.

NomNomNom - `You hear of those situations where a father just keeps the children for months - nightmare.'

...whereas it is extremely commonplace for a father to have this happen to me. My son was prevented from seeing me at all for 3 months before I took the matter to court and I deal with dads who are facing their reality on an almost daily basis.

This is a nightmare that comes true for a large number of men.

Original poster
Baabaapinksheep · 11/12/2013 19:01

I have never said he can't see them. A few months ago he said he wants to start having them at his, and so they went during half term, I have no problem with them going there. When he lived nearer he would have them twice a week, but he has slowly dropped this, and I have fought with him not to. There have been times when he has gone months without seeing them, he didn't see them at all between December last year and March this year!

I want to ease them into going to stay with him slowly, for many reasons. One being that when they went to stay a couple of years ago dd2 cried all night saying she wanted to go home, and so they can home after just the one night. Another reason is that when he came to see them here last month dd1 didn't want to go with him, I had to leave her screaming for me.

I didn't put this in my op as I really just wanted to know my legal position, if any, if he decides to keep them for 2 nights.

I have never been obstructive when he has wanted to see them, I have always wanted him to see them more, but this is a big change for them and so I want to do it slowly. Dd1 struggles hugely with any change, coupled with her tiredness it can be quite hard for her to do these sorts of things.

OP posts:
NomNomNom · 12/12/2013 00:09

Well, you have my sympathy, OP (which is more than you'd get from any F4J fact-ignorer). Only a solicitor can advise you regarding your legal position. It sounds like you've been trying hard to do right by your children.

lostdad · 12/12/2013 08:24

It is always hard when parents are separated. There are always bigots out there who are happy to call names and make ill informed comments.

It's worth considering a McKenzie Friend if it comes to legal assistance too - a fraction of a cost of a solicitor and can be just as good and sometimes better.

3xcookedchips · 12/12/2013 10:17

My sympathies are with the children.

cestlavielife · 12/12/2013 11:09

as an aside - is your dd 5? has she been diagnosed with anything related to her excessive tiredness ? (things like undiagnosed coeliac for example -this can also affect behaviour...) also finding delaing iwht change difficult - does she have any SN? can you assit ehr with transition by making sure she knows what is happening next -use visual schedules, calendars with pictures, set out her day for her that kind of thing...

ok so there is more to it but at first sight, it would look kinda mean/unreasonable for you to say oh no dad can only have one night.

why do you think they (is it jsut dd?) upset to go with him? i dont buy the stranger thing - if loved relative then length of time between visits doesnt make much difference...(look at the reaction of kids who see their dads/mums after the parent been away in afghanistan for months) why is there reluctance>? is he great dad when they with him do theya have funetcetc? what happened in the past or present that they reluctant? other than him disappearing for months...

cestlavielife · 12/12/2013 11:13

also - "a couple of years ago " youngest cried - they both bit older now and you can explain better to them what is going on.

just trying to show that if you ended up in court these things would be raised.... if there no hard evidence of abuse neglect etcetc youw ould be hard pressed to find a good reason why dad should not have the dc for two nighs at a time...

quest12 · 12/12/2013 22:06

Why don't u ask the kids if they want to stay 2 nights and if they don't they can tell ur ex or u can tell them they only want to stay for one? Don't influence their decision tho

3xcookedchips · 13/12/2013 09:38

That is the most ridiculous thing to do!

Original poster
Baabaapinksheep · 13/12/2013 16:28

I've taken her to the gp because of her tiredness and she's fine, completely healthy. She does show some autistic tendencies, but very mild so I've never pursued it as I don't want her being labeled. I can manage her behaviour, and will make sure she is prepared etc.

I'm not entirely sure why she didn't want to go with him, I know for sure they love him. When he comes to see them here they usually do the same thing, so hopefully it was just because she was just bored of always doing the same thing and going to stay with him will help because they will be doing other stuff. That said, I am obviously a little nervous for when they go to stay, I don't want to send her off to him screaming and crying!

If all goes well with this trip then they will go for two days next time, it was never my intention to only ever let them go for one day.

OP posts:
Original poster
Baabaapinksheep · 13/12/2013 16:30

And no I won't be asking the dc. If nothing else one might want to stay for one night and the other for two, then things will be even worse.

OP posts:
starlight1234 · 14/12/2013 23:30

I do feel for you..You have encouraged this...I think it is completely reasonable one night if it is a very long time since they have stayed overnight...

Maybe a compromise might work if he is going to do Christmas stuff...Maybe go for the two days and one overnight stay? so comes home for tea....

SomePeopleNeedHelp · 15/12/2013 19:59

what happened in the past or present that they reluctant? other than him disappearing for months...

Yeah that tiny factor that they don't feel confident that he is reliable or interested in them. Hmm

OP, my ds went through a stage of crying and not wanting to go, we built it up steadily and slowly. He has now stayed there two nights recently. My ex isn't very reliable so I know how hard this can be. Hopefully this is the start of him taking his responsibilities a bit more seriously and not just the usual unreliable nrp suddenly deciding the want to enjoy the kids at Christmas.

I suggest you look into getting a parenting agreement together that you both sign so it is down in black and white, through mediation is obviously cheaper solicitors.

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