Overnight Access

[willdivorcesoon]

Hi, I am wondering if anyone can give me some advise please.

Background - my stbexh and I separated 9 months ago after I discovered he had been secretly gambling. He has addiction issues especially with alcohol but he would vehemently deny this even though I have witnessed and born the brunt of the side effect when he has literally drunk until he passed out in a near coma. We have a 5yo and a 2yo. In the 9 months since separating the children have lived with me full-time, seeing their Dad every Saturday but only in the marital home. He never takes them out anywhere other than to my ds football practise which is 5mins away from home. He then brings them straight back to the house and is with them from approx. 9-3-ish. He also Skypes once a week. Back in April he announced that he had bought a house, just over an hour from where I live with the children. It is a renovation job and needs a lot of work apparently. I have looked it up on Rightmove so can get an idea that the renovations were substantial although I don't know any details. He is also Internet dating. He doesn't know I know this but it doesn't take a lot to find him on dating sites. I have reason to believe he has met someone with children, which is of course his prerogative. We were together for 10years and I have issues with his ability to eradicate the last 10yrs so easily but accept this is my problem and not what this is about really, although it is linked.

So onto the issue. At the weekend he asked if he could have our 5yo overnight. Not our 2yo as he says that she is too young to be away from me. I am a sahm and have been since the birth of our 5yo so neither children are used to being away from me. However I realise that this has to happen at some point and want the children to maintain a relationship with their Dad but I want to ensure their safety before I agree to it.

To this end, I asked him if I can see the property where they will be staying. He got defensive and although he didn't absolutely refuse, he made it clear that it doesn't see it necessary. Can I insist on this?

I also asked who else he would be introducing the children to. He is one of those dads who sees his children as 'trophies' to show off how wonderful they are in a bid to sell himself I think. At this point he got defensive and said - they wouldn't see anyone else except him and his lodger... I immediately jumped on this and asked if he was living with someone. he denied it, quite defensively and said she was a 20-yr old woman. I said I would want to meet anyone who is going to be staying in the same house as the children. He didn't reply to this but has since sent me a text saying that the lodger is female, a lesbian (not sure why this was relevant!), and that she knows she can't have guests if he has the children. I still want to meet her. Am I being unreasonable about this??

My ex is a heavy lifelong smoker. When together he always smoked outside but now I would imagine he is smoking inside as its his own house. I guess there is nothing I can do about him smoking in front of the children. Or in the car with them.

The drinking is the next problem. He totally refuses to accept or see that he has a problem with alcohol. Well, he has occasionally when his drinking has got him into real trouble (like being beaten up in a foreign country, coming round and having little recollection of the event) but as soon as these incidences are a few weeks old he conveniently forgets them. I have a huge problem with him drinking around the children. It doesn't take much for him to be drunk. He is a droopy drunk, by which I mean he doesn't get violent but gets floppy, dribbles and passes out into a coma which is near impossible to wake him from. I am so so worried that he will drink when he has the children and harm will come to them and they won't be able to wake him. Because he doesn't accept he has a problem he won't entertain the idea of not drinking. I am also concerned that my 5yo will want to come home to me and my ex won't be able to drive him. Although worse than this, is that he probably would drive him as he thinks the drink driving laws are over zealous and of course he is 'fine' even though clearly over the limit.

Sorry to witter on. I wanted to get it all down on paper and ask if anyone has any advise, legal or otherwise. Can I ask that he just does daytime visits to his house to start off with and we can build up to overnights gradually? I don't think my ex will entertain this because as I said he bought a house over an hour away from us so this would involve a 4-hr round trip for him to pick the children up, take them to his and then return them at the end of the day. Part of me thinks that is his problem, he was the one to make the decision to buy so far from the kids but he will argue that he could afford to buy a house there.

The crux of it is that I have to trust the man who totally destroyed my trust - and I have to trust him with the 2 people most precious to me in the world. I don't trust him. He is a liar, and he only thinks about himself. He is not safety conscious, nor does he care. He once put our 5yo on his front seat, no car seat and rolled his eyes when I said he had to put him in the back in his booster seat. He thinks this is a stupid law.

Can anyone help with the best way to facilitate this but in a way that I am comfortable?

I'm afraid there is not much you can do. You can't insist on seeing the house or meeting the 'lodger' if he doesn't agree.

The drinking and not using car seat are serious but unfortunately you would have to catch him doing something wrong first. I know, it sucks, you basically have to wait until your children have been endangered to do anything about it. Keep a diary of any concerns and it helps to get independent witnesses if you think he is drunk etc.

Have you tried mediation? I understand about destroying your trust and everything you say but unfortunately a court would see this as having little bearing on the dcs relationship with him. He is their dad and they would order unsupervised contact including overnights (probably even for the 2yo) I would think.

Best to try and agree between you, mediation can help if he is not a total douchebag. Getting him to agree to not drink during overnights incase 5yo needs to be driven somewhere would be my aim I think, plus obeying the law on car seats. The house and the lodger, you just have to trust his judgement as a parent (if he won't budge) - I know how hard it is, I have been through this, MN is here for when you are struggling.

All your concerns as you have put them here are valid. I would personally get a solicitor to record them in a letter to him, asking him to attend mediation with you (if you are comfortable with this) to come to an agreement about how contact will be increased over time.

Ask him to respond to your concerns with a written reply, detailing how he will address each issue. If he can't or won't respond or attend mediation to resolve them, and you are genuinely afraid for the safety of your children in his care, then I wouldn't send them overnight until you have reached a resolution on those issues.

Be clear on what your problems are, and make sure that you are only preventing overnights if you are afraid they are not safe. So the things from your post that I would want my ex to agree to are: not drinking excessively with the children around, if at all. Committing to using car seats each and every time. Enabling the children to contact me by telephone to let me know they are ok when they are with him. Ensuring their physical environment is safe (no dangerous building work, proper sleeping arrangements etc)

The things you probably have to let go are the issues you have around who he introduces them to, who he is living with (unless you have a really serious reason to object) etc. But I would definitely go with a solicitor to record your concerns in the first instance.

Thank you for your replies. Armed with the above advise and a clearer head I called my exh and we have had a somewhat civilised conversation about it all.

I reiterated that in no way do I want to prevent an overnight stay, I just need some concerns addressing before we move forward on it. I spoke, he listened and we came up with the following:

We will start with daytime visits - the first of which is to include me. I'll take the children over to his house, I can see the house and I can meet the lodger - we will then as a family (all be it a disjointed one!), go out to the beach, get ice cream or something so that the children, especially our 5yo can see we are a united front. I think he is the one who is more likely at this stage to try and play us off against each other! We will then continue with daytime visits for the time being and build up to overnights rather than just do it from the word go.

He won't drink when he has the children.

He will bring them home if they get upset to the point that he thinks they need me.

With regards our 2yo, we will play it by ear and see if we think she is ready to stay overnight. If he was just down the road this wouldn't be an issue but the fact he is an hour or more away is a factor as its not so easy to just bring her home.

So for now I am comfortable - well as comfortable as I'm ever going to be being forced into being a part-time parent against my every wish. I hate this situation so much but I guess most people on here can sympathise with how I feel about it.

No doubt I will be back posting when the actual overnight does happen!

Having been through similar concerns. I would suggest you follow up the phone conversation with an e-mail confirming what you agreed for clarity. This serves two purposes:

1. Is a written record should things become more formal.
2. If he breaks the agreement you can remind him that he agreed in writing.

Yes send a follow-up email, this can form the basis of a parenting agreement in the future.

You are not and never will be a part time parent. If the dcs are upset or your ex falls ill you will be looking after them won't you. Their welfare is always going to be at the front of your mind, that is full time in my book.

Yes of course, I didn't mean it in that way. The children are my world and always will be. I guess I meant with regards that when they go for overnights with him I am going to be on my own. I do have hobbies, interests and friends so can fill my time if I so wish but ultimately I didn't want this type if life so it just all feels so heartbreaking.

But I know I'm not the first and certainly won't be the last to feel like this. I am a survivor and will get through this, I just need to find a way to come to terms with it all.

Going to draft an email to him today outlining what we have agreed and explaining it can perhaps form the basis of a parenting agreement in the future.

I tend to do a bit less housework when ds is here and then catch up when he is away, feels like you are making the most of him being here.

First overnight is hard but you do get used to it.

It's not what you dream of when you get pregnant though! Just have to try and make the best of it.

Yes thats a good idea withconfidence . I'm certainly happy to put housework on the back burner. Don't need that suggesting twice! I am literally dreading the first overnight but will steel myself for it happening soon. I'll arrange something nice for myself so I have a nice time. Either that or I'll drink myself into oblivion .

I am definitely one for trying to make the best of it. I'm selling the marital home at the moment and trying to find something I like within budget is not proving easy. Sometimes trying to make the best of things sucks!

Hi there - hope it all goes well for you. If it works and you are happy, then you will gradually find that having time to yourself is actually quite good in lots of ways. The main advice I would give is to be really assertive, and refuse access/ contact if you become seriously worried in any way (eg ANY reports from your children of drinking/ not using car seats etc). It's very easy to become wrapped up in "doing the right thing"/ allowing contact and having your vision clouded and worrying you might be perceived as a bitter ex denying contact, but make sure you step in if you have valid concerns, and feel confident that you are acting in your children's best interests.

Ah now you see I am the opposite there is a frenzy of housework when DD is not here to keep me busy and so when she is here I cam maximise time spent with her.

It won't work if he brings them home every time they get upset as they will soon learn to get upset. So that they come home...

Either he is able to parent them or he isn't.

Set the hours, build them up during that time he deals with their upsets and learns to manage it.

Otherwise you will never ever be off duty will you ?

Start with few hours and build . Up but don't be there on standby, he has to learn to deal with the kids in good and bad times !

Do you trust his promises ? Really ?

Oh and maybe you need to teach five year old how to dial 999 and/or your number in case of emergency ..... If there is any chance dad might end up in a drunk coma..... In any case it is good for kids to learn that and he is old enough to learn 999 and to say where mummy lives .

Um Lonecat, no that is not the opposite of what I said! It feels like preparing a nice place to come home to. Also worked well when ex had ds on his birthday eve and morning and I had the place decorated for his party when he came home - he was so excited to see the decorations all put up.

My ex is living over an hour away so bringing them home at the first sign of upset isn't really an option but I want it to be possible if our 5yo gets extremely upset. I don't see the point in him crying himself to sleep, getting distressed etc just so
my ex can have a drink.

And no I don't believe or trust his promises at all. Far from it but unfortunately I don't see that I have much choice in it. He is their father and as far as I can tell a court will grant him overnight access regardless of my unproven concerns about his ability to care for them. As someone said upthread its almost as if something bad has to happen before any preventive action can be taken. All I have at the moment is his "promises" so I have to go on that whilst laying down some conditions that would not be seen as unfair or unreasonable.

I think its a great idea to teach my 5yo to dial 999. It certainly can't hurt and is probably a good idea in any case as you never know if something might happen to me when at home with both children alone.

I do agree he has to learn to deal with the children in both good times and bad but not at detriment to their safety. Its not that my ex doesn't love them he is just not used to caring for them and ensuring their safety in a way that I am. He has v warped views on things and as he is always right you can never argue or have a different opinion that he would take on board hence his attitude to car seats, drink driving laws being over zealous and his best one being that smoking is in fact not harmful in any way to your health its all just dictator type medical professionals wanting to put the fear of god into people for their own benefit (I have no idea what this benefit is btw.). For someone pretty intelligent he is utterly and mind blowingly stupid at times.

Absolutely is great to lay down conditions.
And great he has agreed.

But at the end of the day you won't be able to police it, you wnt be hteere to stop him having a drink or three....and yes as you say you have to wait for some evidence of poor care before you can take any action. Hopefully that won't be the case. Try and build the day time visits up for a long while before overnights so ds is more confident about being with him ....

willdivorcesoon, it sounds like your ex is a lot like mine. I don't live in the UK right now, but if you have evidence of risky behaviour then you might have a leg to stand on over your concerns. My ex had a problem with drugs as opposed to alcohol and there were so many emails and text messages between us about his behaviour while we were together that i have a court order for no overnights until he had done drug testing. two years later I'm sadly still waiting..... now he doesn't only have no overnights but never turns up at all :(
its FANTASTIC that he has agreed to these things with you - no drinking etc (mine never would agree, and i wonder if the no access is just like a toddler tantrum). a friend of mine (male) advised me that actually having access would force most males into better behaviour and part of the reason they behave badly in the first place is simply because they can (???).
to make you feel a little better, despite not being happy about being a single mum (who is), with all those issues out of your day to day lives your kids will probably do better. mine are thriving.
as for teaching about 999. absolutely. from earlier on in our divorce i taught the kids my mobile number, our home number, friends numbers. i also gave them gentle talks about all sorts of things. how to tell if an adult is drunk. what to do if someone has been drinking intends to drive them in a car - have a tantrum, call another adult etc. we even did an egg test where we did an experiment of why we wear seatbelts - by putting an egg in a toy car and pushing it full pelt across a room into a wall. amazing how they wanted to put their own seatbelts on after seeing that one.
kids of single parents grow up faster but end up being so much more resilient. if we're positive about life then they will be too.

good luck!