contact issue

[NettleTea]

Ex has a prohibitive steps order to prevent him going to DDs school and also taking her from my care/anywhere without my written consent.
He has supervised access every fortnight with my DM for a couple of hours, although in reality it can often go 3-4 weeks between visits if he or DM are busy. He had no contact at all for about 4 years and this current arrangement for about 2 years. DD is nearly 12. usually they go swimming/bowling.
Ex was not given our address and I am NC with him due to past abuse. DD witnessed abuse with ex's GF which resulted in NC between them for 4 years as he refused to engage in any process to address issues.
In the past he has tried to get DD to tell him our address and she has managed to change the subject. He also pushes her into saying she wants to do things which she doesnt, as she is scared to disagree with him in case he gets angry. He will do this when they are swimming, for example, and DM is at the side, so she cannot hear what they are talking about.
Last visit DM stupidly left them alone (she knows this was a mistake and she is going to speak to him about this) and during this time ex managed to get DD to tell him where we lived - he told her that his solicitor needed to know (probably not true). He also got her to say that she wanted to see him more often.
DD was very upset when she came home, she was scared I would be angry about the address (I reassured her that I wasnt angry with her, she was just a child and he was wrong to have pushed her) and she was very confused about the whole 'seeing him more' thing. She alternated between saying that she DID want to see him more, asking WHY she couldnt see him more, and then saying she was scared to say no to him, and she wanted to carry on seeing him with granny.
She was under CAMHS when the abuse incident happened - she was badly affected and was very scared of him. He is scary. He has a terrible temper and loses control easily if disageed with.
We have explained to her that it was not her fault at all, and that he should not have asked her this stuff, in fact he must have KNOWN he shouldnt or he wouldnt have waited until they were on their own. My DP (of 10 years) and I are very concerned that she s unable to say no to him, and can be manipulated by him as she is scared and will agree to what he says so that he wont get angry. This isnt a good thing. DM is determined that she will never leave her alone with him again, she feels an trust is completely broken (there have been several amall incidents on the way, and DM still feels that she wouldnt be happy to allow her unsupervised contact)
DP sugested that this was logged somewhere, maybe with the court? I am not really sure how I would go about this. I am also very concerned about DDs inability to say what she really feels/wants due to being scared of him. I worry about the future for her, and whether this dynamic is setting her up to be a victim of abuse herself later. DP suggested further involvement with the councillor from CAMHS to help her self confidence in this respect. She will be 12 next month and so in a way it might be beneficial for her to understand that legally she holds the power about if she sees him or not (as a court would listen to her at that age) and so he needs to behave in a waty that is respectful to her. its a big ask of a young girl though, and I dont want to be accused of trying to stop him seeing her. I just want to protect her and prevent him causing her damage for her future relationships.
There are issues with drugs and prostitution and very unsuitable friends too, plus he comes from a culture where women are considered 3rd rate citizens, but these are seperate issues to my immediate concern about my DDs self esteem, as he has only very limited contact at the moment.

nettletea, you have my sympathy.

In terms of your DD's future, I think the bright spot is that nobody is normalizing her father's behaviour. She is learning that some people behave badly, true, but nobody is telling her that's it's fine and normal to be treated like that. And presumably you and your DP have been modelling a positive relationship for her. So I don't think she's being set up for a future of abuse (anyone can enter a bad relationship, of course, but she is having boundaries modelled for her).

In some ways I'd be wary of putting your DD in a position where she feels she has to make the decision, as she is clearly conflicted. I presume she wants to see him a bit, in a safe way, and if your DM now understands that she has to police the contact more rigorously, that need might be met. I would tell her quite firmly that contact will not be increased, no matter what he manipulates her into saying. I think it may be reassuring for her to know that you are firmly in charge of setting contact for now so she doesn't have to make tough decisions.

[Disclaimer - my DD is much younger so I'm not so familiar with 12-year-olds. But from my own memories of that age, it made me feel secure to know that a trustworthy grown-up was still in the driving seat].

is difficult isnt it?

dd10 is also confused over contact -spent ysrday with her dad it went well but came back confused over what she wants...however as back to school next week (late start) will put more of a diary/calendar in place.

dd age 12 doesn want to see him.

going back to CAMHS counsellor might be the right thing to do. (here we awating appt after referral - just called to ask what is happening and was put thru to a voicemail saying "i am on holiday til mid sept!) )

and setting out clearly what contact will be and when and sticking to it - setting a schedule for next three months?

put on calendar then if she says specifically she wants more you can look into it.

i think nickname is right about giving choice but as parent/adult keeping some level of control .

i think so long as you stick with the supervised contact it should be ok.

you cant stop him trying to say things/ask things - but keep communication open with dd too?

are you concerned about the addres being disclosed safety wise?

I spoke to her today and she seems pretty adamant that she doesnt want to see him any more than she already does, and certainly not on her own. She can remember unsupervised contact and being trawled round unsavoury pubs while he saw his mates, and also being left alone in cars while he dissappeared round corners doing god knows what, and that made her scared too.

Today she told me that he told her not to say anything, that it was their secret, but that he was going to go back to court to get more contact. She said she always told granny everything he said, but she feels bad because she broke a promise, as he made her promise not to tell anyone, so she is scared of the repercussions as 'granny' will no doubt have it out with him at next visit.

I reassured her that promises which were bad should always be told, and that adults shouldnt be making children promise not to tell stuff or keep secrets, unless it was about something good like a birthday present or surprise party, and that she was absolutely right to tell.

I did talk to her about how no one was going to make her see him more, and that if he DID go to court then her views would be taken very much into account, but she would be able to speak in confidence, and not have to say it in front of him if she was worried. I think she pretty much understands that his behaviour is wrong and appreciates that we are behind an choices she makes, and will ensure that we make choices which keep her feeling safe.
She said she would like to talk to the CAMHs lady again, and maybe do something to teach her about assertiveness. She understands how, by being unable to say no, she could end up in a far worse situation than having to deal with the repercussions of saying no where she is safe with my mum.
Of course he poo poos the idea that she could be scared of him, totally disregards it. He says 'dont be stupid, I am her father, why would she be scared of me, you are talking ** and trying to turn her against me'

In regards the address - she is scared that he will come round and either try to take her/talk to her on her way home from school/when she is out playing. Or she is most scared that he will come and start shouting at me or hurt me. I said that he cannot do that, and if he did I would call the police and have him removed. She then said she wouldnt want him to get arrested or in trouble, but I pointed out that he had to be responsible for his own behaviour - that if he made a decision to do something like that, which is against the law, then he had to accept the consequences of his actions. She couldnt feel responsible for that because she hadnt made him do it.

I'm sorry it's so hard for your DD, but you're saying doing all the right things. It's great that she can confide her fears in you and get reassurance.

God that's bloody awful. I was about to say this was my childhood - the manipulation part by her father certainly was but his lifestyle sounds much worse.

In the end a Cafcass worker saw me alone - I was 11 - and I told her I don't want to see my Dad so she over ruled him on contact. Things were never as bad after that.

I think it's v important your dd has someone impartial to talk to. This could either be a school counsellor/camhs/a teacher/anyone really but she needs an advocate definitely.
Kids find whistle blowing v difficult and don't want to let down either parent or betray them - it's a position adults shouldn't put them in. At work we have a lot of success using official advocate for our young people (I am a SW and my case load are mostly young teens). They seem to be able to tease out all sorts of interesting themes from kids about their worries etc.

If ex is going back to court you might as well speak to your solicitor soon and share your concerns - which are huge and significant! You are right though that Cafcass will go directly to dd for her wishes. At 12 he isn't going to get anything inappropriate awarded.

Keep a diary too re contact.

Sounds like you are handling it as best you can - big hugs