DS doesn't want to see his dad

[CinnamonPreztel]

My ds is 4 and has been seeing his father on a monthly basis since 6 months (with the exception of a 5 month gap when he was 1). I have always promoted contact between them hence me sending him from 6 months (he left me during my pregnancy). I grew up without a dad and do not want that for my ds. However, since the very start my ds does not want to see his dad. From what I gather (hearing him in background etc) he is ok whilst there, but the initial separation and build up to that is awful. Ds is becoming anxious throughout the month, waking in the night crying that he doesn't want to see his dad.

I'm not sure if it's because he doesn't understand when he's going... Ds is delayed in his speech and understanding and definitely does not understand concept of "you're seeing him next week" or marking on calendar etc.

He tells me "I don't love daddy", and "daddy's not my best friend you are". I tell him daddy loves him and he can have more than 1 "best friend" but he gets angry and upset.

Regarding his dad, he can be very harsh with ds, and understandably finds it difficult when ds screams he doesn't want to go/clings to me/becomes hysterical on collection. He responds with anger, screams at ds and does not help.

He only sees him on a monthly basis as he lives 4 hours away and cannot afford to collect him more regularly. I constantly BEG him to Skype ds, call him etc throughout month to make the transition easier but he "forgets" or "is busy". He gets upset because ds does not want to talk to him and gives up.

I don't know what to do. Ds is growing into an anxious child. I want contact to continue, as I said he is happy when there and comes home happy. But due to his delayed understanding it is hard to ease his anxiety. Are children ever old enough to "opt out" of contact? I'm stuck between a rock and hard place, i feel like I'm forcing my ds to see his dad when he really doesn't want to, after I have handed him over I feel sick with guilt, ds gets angry with me for handing him to his dad.

Sorry for long post. I'm just really at a loss here and concerned about my ds waking in the nights now scared.

It's hardly surprising your son resists contact if his father is harsh and has outbursts of temper at handovers. Effectively your ex is bringing about his own alienation and it needs to stop. He won't listen to you of course, but you could try mediation or family counselling.

What would you do if he wanted to `opt out' of school in a year or two incidentally?

Lostdad you have been overly selective in your response. I am not asking that question with a hope to end contact as I thought was made very clear in my post. Regardless of my opinion, by asking that question I was hoping for someone to have knowledge of the legal aspect. Is there an age where legally his wishes will be considered?

STIDW thank you for your response, mediation is a good idea that I would be happy to take part in and will look into this. I tried to record ds's dad screaming at him last time but my phone messed up, he scares me when he gets like that let alone ds.

lostdad wrote

What would you do if he wanted to `opt out' of school in a year or two incidentally?

Of course if a child just didn't feel like going to school, didn't have a plausible reason or was avoiding it because he/she had fallen out with friends or had't done their homework and was in for a row a sensible parent would insist the child went school. On the other hand if the child was constantly bullied, the school hadn't been able to resolve the problem and the child was depressed then it would be an extremely foolish parent that forced the child to go school.

It's similar with contact. If a child just doesn't feel like going or is avoiding the parent and/or the parents new family then it would be appropriate to insist they go. On the other hand some children?s resistance is based upon real past events and the behaviour of the parent they are rejecting.

There are children who are "estranged" from a parent and resistant to contact as a result of having witnessed repeated outbursts of temper by one of their parents. Some estranged children may have been so traumatised by their experiences that they show signs of anxiety, fearfulness and other post traumatic symptoms.

Some estranged children have not been traumatised by past experiences but come to a judgement about the value of contact based upon experiences which they are able to describe. Children might reasonably feel that contact visits are unpleasant if the parent is unreasonably restrictive and harsh.

In these case insisting on contact can be counter-productive. If the contact parent can't be persuaded to change their behaviour they will effectively alienate themselves.

Have you discussed this with you ex and if so, what does he say?

Very helpful lostdad, did you even read the OP?

he is too young to opt out you have to make the decisions - but you could be proactive and talk to gp about speaking to a child family therapist. some places you can get a free telephone consultation .

if ds is getting outside help with his speech etc then speak to the SLT they might be able to refer to psychologist quicker for advice .

if dad is shouting and screaming at your son then it is not a positive experience for him is it?

I think if he is so anxious about the visit that he is waking up in the night worrying about it and getting severely distressed then you need to consider stopping overnight contact.

What STIDW says, perfect.
OP the thing you describe your ds saying " you are my best friend , not him"
sounds as though his dad may be putting him under some pressure, and it is causing him conflict. He is obviously attached to you as his primary carer, perhaps his father feels that he has to compete? obviously very unhelpful if so.
Skype however sounds as if it would be very helpful, I wonder does Lostdad have any thoughts on why that does not happen?

If I didn't know better I'd think you had a DC with my XP.
This is exactly what we went through 10 years ago.

My DS would cry and cling to me, was distressed every time at the mention of going to stay with his dad, and as he grew older would start telling me days before he was due to go that he didn't want to go.

I always promoted contact. XP thought I was stirring and inciting DS's behaviour, which I definitely wasn't. I actually needed the break myself.

XP put DS under a lot of pressure over the years. DS is 15 and has stopped contact completely, now that he is in charge of the arrangements himself.

My only regret is all the times I made him go when he was crying his eyes out.
I feel that left to his own devices he would have come round to the idea.
Now he just doesn't want to see his dad at all.

Op - legally your dc would have to be around 10 years old or older to start making their own choice as to whether they saw the NRP or not and before this contact would be advised.

what are the contact arrangments? is it over night a day an afternoon, do you tell him he is going or does his father just turn up?

Quite frankly, seeing his son monthly is the problem - his dad is a virtual stranger. Dad needs to be encouraged to have more contact and made to realise that with more contact the anxieties shown by ds will reduce.

Also, your son is going thru transition anxieties - the movement between the two households can be a fraught time for a child. As you said he seems fine whens he's with his dad? You just need to continue the reassurance and hope the ex shows the same empathy.

The parenting style of ex sounds like he's not helping matters - can he be reasonable most times, can you try and talk ti him about avoiding the anger at the child at collection? The dad needs to relax, and maybe you also - appreciate you may be getting anxious also but when put together the child will pick up on most things from their parents.

I wouldn't push him regards how he feels about his dad - my DS went through a stage at about that age of saying things like "some children prefer their mums and some prefer their dads... I prefer my mum" - what he was fishing for I think was for me to say that that was OK. It's OK to love one parent more than the other, and to feel much closer to the one you live with. Good if you can show you understand and accept that he's not (currently) close to his dad, but still encourage him to see him as of some value in his life.

What does his dad do with him when he sees him? Is there anything your DS would like to do with him? Dads who don't see their kids all that much can sometimes be a bit clueless I think as to waht their children would like to do - would your ex be willing to take a suggestion?

I also found it easier, at times when either of my DCs was anxious about going to their dads, to avoid him collecting them from my home. If I dropeed them at his that always seemed to be much better - they were already engaged in something by the time I left. Difficult if your ex is coming a long way to see DS - but you could try meeting him out somewhere, or taking DS to wherever your ex is staying when he has him.

ivykaty44 wrote;

legally your dc would have to be around 10 years old or older to start making their own choice as to whether they saw the NRP or not and before this contact would be advised.

That's not strictly true. CAFCASS can ascertain pre-school perceptions through art and and play. For example in one well known case the perceptions of a 4 year old boy that he lived in two homes was a factor the courts considered when awarding shared residence. On the other hand, a change of residence was awarded against the opposition of a 14 year old. Each case is determined by the particular facts.

When a child is found to be estranged and traumatised because they have witnessed a parents outbursts of temper it's unlikely that a court would award any contact until the child has undergone psychological therapy. If a child is resistant to contact because a parent is unreasonably restrictive a court may make directions for the contact parent to attend mediation in the hope that the parent can be persuaded to change their behaviour.

My DD decided at age 3 that she didn't want to stay with her father and the family courts respected and upheld this.

Cutted: I don't believe you!

Well I'm not bullshitting. My solicitor at the time was surprised. XP had been violent to me and I think this helped in their decision.

XP was given leave to reapply for personal contact through a higher court. He did this a few months later but he didn't show up. Sent a fax from India.
This was 17 years ago.

Or more likely it was the violent tendancies that led to the courts decision and not the views of a 3 year old.

The family welfare officer said in court that DD was very eloquent for her age and was happy to believe that DD's wishes were well expressed and that the court should take note of them.

Anyway this is not a thread about that case, maybe this will help in some way though.

It's not enough contact - that's the problem.

He doesn't "know" his dad.

My 4 year old has been through a traumatic time - and people dropping in and out of his life hasn't helped it at all. I'm a massive porponent of fathers rights - but in this situation - I'd say more contact or none.

The legislation applied by the court was very different 17 years ago; the current Children's Act, which the Family Courts follow was only passed in 1989 and not fully implemented for several years.
The principle of Gillick Competence was also established far more recently - I very much doubt the same course of events would occur in a similar case today.

Well I'm glad it worked back then. XP was a really dodgy character.