Trying to separate amicably- questions about maintenance and mortgage

[soontobesolo]

(Name change in case anyone recognises me, haven't told anyone in RL yet). OK, P and I haven't been getting on well for quite a while and he has decided to move out. Plan is he rents because he has a bad credit history (loads of defaults on direct debits etc, the only good part is our joint mortgage because it has always come out of my sole account). ATM we own the property so that if one dies the other inherits their share so need to change this BUT is it fair to have equal shares if I am scrimping and saving to pay the (repayment) mortgage and to do major work such as an urgently needed new kitchen? Should we change at least some to interest only and then when the term is over, which coincides with DC2 turning 18, sell the house to pay off the capital? We have more than 50% equity and have never missed a payment thanks to me, even overpaid sometimes, so don't think it would be too hard to convert some of mortgage to interest only.

Also, P is quite happy to pay the CSA amount of 20% nett salary for the 2 DC but I don't think the DC will be able to continue with all of their existing extracurricular activities or go on the optional school trips if I have to pay for these on my own, so is it unreasonable to ask for extra for these? I would like to formalise something in advance because while P may be willing, he is rubbish with money to the extent that he is always down to his last pound by payday despite being a HRT! Hence I will need to get the maintenance payment out straight after his salary goes in.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

OK, my advice is to separate what SHOULD happen and what is 'fair' and figure out what is possible instead.

It is unlikely your bank will agree to any changes to the mortgage unless you can take on the entire mortgage yourself. And if you continue with the joint mortgage you will find in x years he will still technically own 50-50 with you despite you having paid the mortgage on your own. Then it will be a legal battle to give him his 'fair share'.

Remember, fair is relative. What you think is fair will not be what he thinks is. Give it a few years at most and he will be desperate to get his name off the mortgage. Especially if he wants to move in with someone else.

Given your P's lack of financial discipline, I strongly recommend you treat his 20% as a bonus and not essential living money. You only have to read this forum to find many other parents who get nothing at all despite what the CSA deem is appropriate. If your P has to suddenly pay rent, pay 20% of his salary to you and fund a newly found social life & freedom you can bet the latter will be top of his priorities.

You would not be unreasonable to ask for extras but he may not contribute and he's under no obligation to. Esp. not if he's giving you 20% of his income.

Lastly have you considered how often he will see the kids? If he's having them overnight then he will get a reduction in his maintenance calcs. In which case it may not be a straight 20%.

In short hope for the best, prepare for the worst. You won't go far wrong in that case.

Thanks for your reply niceguy. OK, maybe I am being too optimistic but I was thinking of getting a standing order for the 20% set up to come out the day after P is paid. I would have thought he would be reluctant to get CSA involved because he has quite a responsible senior professional job and tries to keep his private life separate from work so I could use this as a lever to get the standing order set up.

Re the house I thought the shares would automatically be 50% each but we could agree to a different proportion. I saw a solicitor last year about making a will and she advised I may have a case for a greater share given there is no evidence that he has ever paid towards the mortgage but I really don't want to go down the legal route. I may be quite naive here but I assumed that we inform the bank P has moved out but we both continue to be liable for the mortgage although obviously I am really the only one who would pay it. In that case would they really be reluctant to change some of it to interest only?

My neighbour is in a similar situation with her ex-P and the bank agreed she could change to interest only with her ex-P's agreement. Her situation is not identical in that she has a smaller mortgage but then again she is self-employed whereas I have been on a permanent contract with the same employer for the last 10 years. In practice I can meet the mortgage repayments alone although the outstanding amount is I think too large for me to take on alone given the fact that they have probably lowered the multiples of salary you are allowed to borrow.

Re having the kids overnight DC1 is at secondary and doesn't get on with P very well and I think would be reluctant to stay overnight. DC2 will really miss him but not sure if he will want to stay overnight without DC1. Initially P is thinking of moving into a shared house so may not be easy to have the DC overnight, obviously who knows what will happen in the future.

Another question is, when and how to tell the DC? I was thinking in the summer holidays to give them a bit of time to get used to the idea and minimise the impact on schoolwork. Should P move out immediately after we tell them, is it more confusing if we tell them a few days before he moves?

they check credit ratings for rental agrements so unless you prepared to pay up front eg six months it might be problematic. check with some agencies.

if you not married you should get some kind of formal separation agreement drawn up covering financial aspects, house etc and signed with solicitor - so you protected later.

speak to bank informally about going interest only see what they say.

thing is if you do anything with mortgage eg changing it etc and they check both of your credit rating right now then your p's issues could come up and create a problem for you both.

also he can easily cancel any standing order you set up (not that you could set something up on his account- he would need to do this) . nothing will be set in stone will it?

Thanks cestlavie, that's a brilliant idea to get a formal agreement witnessed by solicitor!

Do you mean P may have problem getting rental agreement or that it will impact on mortgage? I think he may intend to rent a room informally from a friend, he's not being very clear about his intentions.

We had this discussion about a year ago and that was what he was going to do but his friend's flat wasn't very close to our house and he had the idea that he would continue collecting DC from school on the days he does now and coming back to our house, just spending the night elsewhere but I thought that would be too confusing for the DC plus not really fair to me in terms of moving on with my own life

Yes I know he could cancel standing order at any time but couldn't I then get CSA to trace him at work and get the money that way? His line of work isn't anything you can do cash in hand nor is he likely to stop working unless he were to become ill so he would always be traceable through Inland Revenue, he's not devious just a bit rubbish with money!

My ex pays me by direct debit set up to pay out a day or two after his salary goes in. As a system it works well - he never really sees the money so if he's short of cash it's something else that goes, not the payment to me. Actively cancelling a direct debit is more difficult than simply spending money in your pocket and unlikely to be any help for short term cash flow problems. I got him to set this up under threat of using CSA if he didn't and used the calculator on their webpage to work out how much he should pay.

Would agree that buying him out of the house would be best in the long term if/when you could you afford it. I had a lodger for several years which helped lower the amount I owe on the mortgage. If you don't buy him out he may force you to sell at some time in the future when he wants the cash.

You may also find you can claim tax credits once your ex moves out.

It sounds like your ex won't be one of the really unreasonable ones whom intentionally won't support his kids. But Ive learned the hard way that ex's are not to be trusted as far as you can throw them.

It's about preparing yourself for the worst. So all well & good if he is happy and able to pony up 20% of his salary each month the day after he gets paid.

BUT what if in a couple of years he loses his job? How does that impact your life? What about if you have a big argument and he cancels the direct debit out of spite? Yes you can go to the CSA and let's forget that soon they will charge you for their services. If you are lucky you will see some money in say 3-6 months time by the time they get a detachment of earnings order. How does that impact your financial situation then if you rely on his money to pay the bills?

Sounds to me like you need legal advice with regards to what to do with the house. The last thing you want is to leave yourself in the situation where you pay the mortgage for the next ten years and hope he's nice enough not to make a claim at that time for 50%.

As I often said, as a single parent principles are a luxury we sometimes can't afford.

Wow sounds like you have had a bad experience niceguy. I don't think P is likely to lose his job and if he does it's a field where there is always plenty of agency work. HOWEVER it's not unlikely he might be unable to work due to poor health, he has suffered bad depression in the past and it hasn't been properly addressed, TBH I'm not sure if he is currently depressed. I think I would be more likely to lose my job and find it hard to get another as it's in quite a specialised field, I could definitely get something but not paying as much I don't think. I have however taken out insurance for myself being unable to work due to sickness or redundancy via an insurance broker so hopefully should be reliably covered. I do also have approximately 6 months salary saved.

Obviously it's in the interests of the DC to have a good relationship with their father but if he were to stop paying and we had to sell the house and move somewhere smaller I wouldn't lie about the reason. DC1 already gives him a hard time about being rubbish with money but DC2 really adores him, I really don't think he would want to change DC2's opinion of him.

Yes I think I do need some legal advice about the house, would I need a lawyer specialising in family law? I don't want to pay the capital off on my own if he still gets 50%.

If the mortgage were completely interest-only I think I would probably only pay the same amount per month as he would for a room in a shared house which on the one hand seems unfair to him but then again I am sure I will have to pay more than 20% of my salary to cover the extra costs of the DC. Then again I feel it's unfair to him to miss out on seeing so much of the DC, I couldn't bear to only see them once or twice a week but it is completely his choice. Everything I have tried to suggest to address the problems in the relationship has been blocked with him saying there is no point as the relationship is doomed but he has been dragging his heels for a couple of years about moving out.

Any thoughts about how best to tell the DC? Should we tell them and P move straight out or is that too drastic, will they have false hopes if we tell them it is going to happen at some future date?

Sorry didn't mean to ignore your post chocolat, my laptop screen is quite small so only noticed niceguy's reply initially. Yes that is the approach I want to take with P re the direct debit.

Unfortunately I don't think I could ever afford to buy him out of the house, we are lucky in the sense we benefitted from astronomical house price increases, our house is worth at least 4x what we paid for it. I won't need a 4 bedroom house once the DC have left home anyhow, would be quite happy to down size then although appreciate P may not want to wait 10 years.

Having a lodger is a real possibility as top floor bedroom has its own ensuite bathroom. I am not sure that P could ever save enough to afford legal fees to force me to sell, would be better if we could remain amicable and agree what is in the children's best interest without preventing either of us from having a decent life. If he never has a good enough credit record to buy another property he may be happy to rent knowing that he still has an asset?

Not sure I will be able to claim tax credits unfortunately, haven't they just reduced the upper salary level quite a bit?

Yes, they have. Income limit's about £30,000 now if you have two kids, or a bit higher if you pay childcare.

If you think your ex will go along with you paying mortgage and keeping his share of the asset that's probably the best thing to do. You're effectivly slowly buying him a greater share of the house, but you are also getting to live in his share at no cost. So guess you could say it evens out.

I quite liked having lodgers. One kept himself to himself most of the time, but was perfectly pleasant. The other two I got on really well with. Even got them to babysit a few times.

Renting a room from a friend is a short term solution for him isn't it ? Or would he stay in a room for ever ? How would he have dc to visit ina a shared house ?

Anyway longer term yes is likely the equity is split fifty fifty.if you end up n court that would be under TOLATA trusts of land act.
However if you been paying mortgage and maybe improvements over the ten years then you might argue for a slightly bigger share in your favour. At that point,

But really for now you need to decide how will it wrk next six months two years five years ?
Bearing in mind things may change if he or you get new partner.
If you really amicable why not split the house into two separate flats informally put up some stud walls and a kitchen up stairs ? If you think you can both cope with close proximity like that ....

And I had credit checks to get rented flat so yes if he goes for a whole falt in his name most agencies landlords will do credit check. ......

Cestlavie, I don't think he intends to have the DC to visit there, as I say last time he brought up leaving the idea was that he would be round here to see them nearly every day then head off to his new place to sleep but I don't think that would work.

Don't think splitting the house is the solution as he is desperate to leave, I think he thinks he will be happier away from here but I am not so sure. He likes having lots of space, he was really unhappy when the 2 of us lived in a 1 bed flat prior to buying this house and I can't see how he will be able to afford even that on his own in London. If he is depressed he might be happier if he can house share with a friend, of course there may be another woman. He doesn't seem to have any definite plans, when I ask he says it's not my concern.

Maybe you need to get the next few months sorted first, and think about the house, etc in a few months when he's got a bit more idea what he wants to do.

Sounds to me as if either there's something he's not telling you about his plans (eg other woman) or he is possibly depressed and not really able to think what he wants. Either way a few months apart with him visiting DC at yours - or taking them out somewhere - might make things a bit clearer.

My DC did stay overnight at their dad's in a shared house for a few months after we split and it did kind of work, though they were quite little at the time.

If he is depressed then nothing will make him happier or happy. That is the thing about clinical depression changing location won't cure it....

Tho it might give you peace of mind if he living with a friend.

Lived with exp and his depression for years ...nothing could make hm happy tho he always had ideas that would somehow change everything.
Of course they did not.

Is he getting therapy for his depression?

Meds? Under gp or mental health team ?

If you going to have him visit dc at your place set a time limit on it. Set hours. When he comes. And time in months. For this to go. On For.

Why does he think sleeping elsewhere would solve everything? Either you splitting or you not.... You risk ending up with continuing as you are but he just disappears at night.

Anyway push him to go stay with friend and try it.

But if he is depressed clinically and you mentioned he could even lose his job over his mental health then be prepared for anything to happen.....

Also it sounds like other than financial he wants no responsibility for his and your dc. ?

You keep house do the caring etc and he trots in and out...doesn't even want to be bothered to get his own place to have them to stay ?
Or that is the depression ?

How much does he do with them now?

You already said oldest doesn't get on with him?

Or is he just planning to go off and have a single life? Does he have lots of friends ?

Sorry veering off from questions about mortgage maintenance but it all sounds a bit odd in terms of how he envisages your split .

Cestlavie, he was diagnosed with depression maybe 18 months ago, he went to GP, decided not to take ADs, got a few paid for sessions of counselling through his work and it did make a difference but now he is behaving like he did previously, won't make eye contact, won't tell me what's wrong when I ask, when he does talk he seems to imply everything is my fault. When he seemed a bit better he said that he had constantly thought about killing himself when he was depressed so I am worried he is feeling that again. I think it's not a healthy environment for the DC, he speaks to me disrespectfully at home and in front of others, it kind of washes over me now but friends have told me I shouldn't put up with it, and he's not nice to DC1 sometimes.

I'm not sure about him visiting the DC here as he will have a go at me over house being untidy (because I will have to let the cleaner go), will complain the house is too cold and turn the heating up high while leaving the windows open! He does this now but at least he is paying half the fuel costs. I know I will feel resentful because nothing will really have changed for me except I will have more financial stress and traumatised DC, but won't have a chance to move on. It sounds terrible but actually we rarely fight, we just kind of live our own lives, sometimes the atmosphere is OK and we are like co-parenting flatmates, sometimes he is in a nasty mood, is really scathing to us or completely withdraws from the rest of the family, goes and shuts himself away or goes out without a word. Does this sound like depression to you?

Chocolat, I am sure DC1 won't stay anywhere where he hasn't got his own bedroom. DC2 is much less fussy, still happy to share a bed with a parent.

Cestlavie he has said previously he would carry on with same pattern of collecting DC2 from school, feed DC here etc then go back to his flat for the night.

He does do some fun stuff with them now i.e. take them out for the day but I have always been the one who does all the mundane stuff. He has no idea what days they do activities at school, he has never bought them a single item of clothing, I am the one who notices when they need new shoes etc, he will just ask why they don't have more than one set of something as if everything miraculously appears. He would say I have enabled him to be like this but I can't let the DC wear too small shoes until he notices or not have a warm coat because he hasn't noticed it's winter! I have never asked to do everything and I would have been very happy if he had ever offered to help. When we used to go on family holidays he would not even know where we were going beyond which country it was and then would complain because I had forgotten to do something like pack Calpol for the DC.

He does have lots of friends and goes out far more than I do and I have never complained about this since I don't often want to go out on week nights. So I don't think living here has curtailed his social life except I guess he can't invite friends round on week nights the way he could if he were single.

lots of good reasons t separate for sure but i agree dont let him come visit in the house - he wants to leave, have his own life that also means taking responsbility and having dc at his place and dealing with everything. get him to mvoe then say - he has to take DC out and to his new place. not hang around at yours.

if he is the same with people at work and friends - yes depression tho it can be blurred lines between controlling behvaiour aimed solely at you versus depression...