Contact order

[NewLP]

Recently joined the throng on Lone Parents ? infrequent poster/very frequent lurker with a name change ? He knows my other handle.

We have, up to now, what I thought was a private informal contact arrangement for our 3yr old DS.
This was stipulated by me and agreed by xp to be:
Every other Saturday or Sunday for 2-3 hours increasing as felt reasonable based on DS?s reaction to everything.
Eventually coming to overnight stay?s then full weekends etc.
This was all under the understanding that it HAD to be done at DS?s pace ? this is after all for his benefit not ours.

Now, visit 1 ? A Saturday ? 3 hours ? he brings his parents with him ? DS most distressed about this. I told him (DS) that he would have to tell Daddy that he didn?t want his GP?s to come and that he only wanted Daddy ? this he did ? no further visits with the GP?s. But xp doesn?t understand ? he hasn?t bothered to ask him why ? I did, he said he didn?t like them ? they frighten him!! enough said.

Visit 2 ? Saturday - 3 hours ? During the week before the visit was speaking to DS about getting his hair cut. DS said he wanted daddy to take him. Told xp ? said no problem. 10 min before DS due back xp rings to say he hadn?t had his hair cut yet ? should he bring him home or try and get it done now ? told him to get it done as I knew DS would be disappointed. 45mins later, he brings DS home ? without his hair cut said no one would do it. 20 mins later I?m sat in the first Barbers I find with DS getting his hair cut.

Visit 3 ? Saturday ? 4 hours ? DS wanted to go to the beach. He asked if they could walk ? its only a 10 min 3yr old pace walk away from where we live and we always walk. xp said no ? he wasn?t going to WASTE the 15 min walk there and back ? waste???? WTF ? Is he not spending time with DS whilst they?re walking then? Less time than it would be to stuff him in his car seat ? drive down to the beach ? about 10 min drive depending on traffic ? then drive round for half an hour looking for a parking space ?which can only be used for an hour anyway!!

This morning I receive a letter from his solicitor detailing a new contact plan that I have to sign for court submission.

Starting 1st April every other weekend.
Easter and Christmas this year ? and every other then after.
His birthday every other year
2 weeks in the Summer
Any other time he wishes ? to be agreed privately.

Now, I?m all for him spending more time with DS, but this is ridiculous. He has given absolutely no thought for DS in any of this.

Last Saturday is the longest time xp has EVER spent with DS in his life ? suddenly he expects after only 2 more visits DS is going to be up to being taken away for a whole weekend?? Baring in mind also that DS has never yet spent a night away from me.
And the other thing that bothers me is that xp?s line of work is not conducive to having sole charge of a minor ? he is on call 24/7 and should there be an invocation he has a 2 hr response limit otherwise he puts his company in breach of contract. We live 3-4 hours from each other ? depending on traffic, which depends on the season living in a seaside resort. ? how is he going to get DS back to me?
Bring in the GP?s no doubt ? which I think is his plan for the weekends anyway ? regardless of DS?s feelings about them.
I honestly don?t think that he would be so bothered with DS if it weren?t for his mother ? this is all for her benefit really..that?s what galls me the most in all of this.
Also, subjecting a very car sick little boy to a 3-4 hour each way journey every other weekend is not in his best interest IMO.

His birthday ? unless it falls on a weekend he will be in nursery/school during the week ? this year will be the last nursery year ? Am I really expected to take him out of school for his birthday every other year?

I have told him about the behaviour changes in DS after the visits so far - bad tempered ? aggressive towards me ? just like his dad then ? wetting himself ? even his key worker at the nursery has questioned what happens every other week ? When I told her she just said , ah that explains it then?.

I have an appointment with a solicitor on Thursday to talk about a response, but thought I would bounce it off you all as you?ve been there, done it and got the t-shirts so to speak.

Sorry this is so long, but I knew I wouldn?t get too far without providing some background?thanks for listening.

Hi NewLP
I don't have specific advice as I have always arranged contact informally.
My gut feeling is that he has been told by a solicitor to make these demands and that they are up for negotiation, eg his opening gambit is high but he is willing to settle for less...

I wouldn't worry too much about your son's behaviour changes-- bad temper/wetting himself is very normal 3 year old behaviour and i seriously doubt that spending a total of 10 hours alone with his father would be enough to trigger behavioural problems.

It's very normal to feel protective of your children, esp. if you ex was agressive towards you. But from an outsider's point of view it doesn't sound like your ex has done anything really out of order (or even that wrong) whilst in charge of your son.

I really hope your solicitor can sort this out. The amount of contact your ex has suggested is way too much, IMHO!

Good luck and let us know how you get on

Agree with beejay, this is an opening gambit.

How amicable is it? Can you sit down and discuss with him that this amount of contact would be reasonable in about 3 or 4 years time, when he's used to taking sole responsibility for DS, but that it needs to be built up to? Or is he determined to make solicitors rich?

you dont have to agree to his / his solicitors demands. you should only agree to what you believe to be in ds's best interests (but trying to see there is likely to be benefit to him of having opportunity for relationship with his father). have you considered suggesting mediation?

Caligula; things are not very amicable with us at the moment ? any conversation we try to have quickly dissolves in to him becoming verbally aggressive with me and me ordering him to leave.
This I might add in front of DS.
I have now told him via email that I will not enter into any face to face un DS related conversation with him as he has proved time and time again that he finds it difficult to remain civil with me and doesn?t care that DS get to see/hear all of this.
If he has anything he wishes to discuss with me he should do it via email. That way I can protect DS from his abusive behaviour towards me.
I meet him at the door with DS ready to go ? kiss DS good bye, tell him to be a good boy for daddy and I?ll see him soon. When he brings him back, I tell DS to say good bye to daddy then shut the door.
This seems to be my punishment for shutting him out/removing his control over me??

Yep, sounds like it.

How good is your solicitor?

beejay; I wasn?t trying to suggest that xp had done anything wrong as such, just trying to demonstrate his lack of thought towards DS during his visits that seem to be getting worse rather than better.
As for DS?s behaviour changes ? this only lasts for up to 3 or 4 days after he has had contact with xp ? normally he is a very lovely, loving well behaved child ?
DS never mentions his father between visits either ? not too sure what to make of that ? always seems happy to see him, but when he gets home that?s the end of it. He will not be drawn in to any conversation regarding what his day with daddy has been like.
If I ask DS any direct questions about daddy ? like
Me: what did you have for lunch?
DS: xxxx < and marta sauce of course!!>
Me: oh lovely ? did daddy have xxxx too.
DS: Don?t know ? change subject.

Caligula: I have no idea ? It will be the first session with her on Thursday.

Of course you're not imagining the behaviour changes. Loads of young kids play up after contact visits, it's standard behaviour. Usually though, as long as the xp isn't a twat who is using the contact visits as an opportunity to continue hostilities with the mother of the child, that behaviour does settle, so hang on in there, it won't last forever.

Thanks Caligula ? I had thought that things would settle down ? especially once I ceased contact between xp and I. But I had hoped that he would allow more time for DS to settle in to this routine before going gung ho in to full blown contact. Am I likely to be able to stop this new contact order?

Not sure because I've never been through this. When I read threads like this I'm glad my ex is a useless git who can't be arsed to see his children. However, I would think so. You need a decent solicitor who is on your side though, and if you have any doubts about that, get rid.

Thanks again ? I was mildly pleased that I have been assigned a SHE solicitor rather than a HE ? not sure what that says about me but I did think she may be more sympathetic than a man who could be going through a similar thing- or just dreading the thought perhaps. Mind you, having said all that- xp?s solicitor is a woman too!!

I am going to disappear for the day soon ? I only log on during work hours ? so please don?t think I am ignoring anyone if I don?t respond today. Thanks to all who have contributed- great help and advise.

you need a specialist family solicitor, ideally a member of "resolutions" (solicitors family law assoc.)/ member of the childrens panel. ask yours if they are these things. do think of mediation before heading / being headed off court though....

Don't assume a woman will be more sympathetic. Quite the contrary. Men know what bastards other men can be, so sometimes they're better.

[Runs off very fast in the wake of sweeping sexist statment]

You haven't said how long you and xp have been separated or how long it has been since ds has had any lengthy contact with his dad.

You have detailed recent events very clearly here. I would advise writing them down in a diary as a contemporaneous account of what transpires. This diary could be extremely useful if any court proceedings ensue. You need to show that everything you do is in ds's best interests and show clearly why what xp wants isn't.

See your solicitor on Thursday and then you will know whether you feel she is sympathetic to your position or not and whether you want to stick with her.

I would say (from similar questions I have posed to my solicitor) that to begin with, so long as you are letting him see your DS regularly, you CAN say no to overnight in the short term.

agree with Freckle that youve not said how long separated.

I would also say that the 24 hr on-call thing would worry me to so you should mention this.

oh and if you use email, check it lots of times to make sure that NOTHING you say is aggressive or demanding or about YOU - you are looking after DS's interests so make sure you stick to that otherwise it may be something he could use against you

how it comes to this....

Morning ladies ? thanks for the additional replies.
More information required ? I had kind of expected that, but didn?t want to win a prize for the longest opening post in MN history!!

How long have we been separated?

Officially since the beginning of December 05 ? not that long.
I confronted him about my suspicions that he was having an affair towards the end of October ? He denied it, but when I told him that I did not believe him and could no longer trust him and we should part he agreed.
We were in the process of selling our house and purchasing a new one ? we gave back word on the purchase but continued the sale.
We lived in the same house for a further 6 weeks to completion ? taking us to the beginning of December

Start a diary:

I did start to keep a log of xps contact with DS whilst we were still living together ? but separated IYSWIM.
I had seen someone else advised by the great MN team to do so and thought it would be a good idea for me too.
Even when we were together ? in the 6 weeks I kept the log he didn?t manage to clock up 24 hrs!!

I have also taken on board advise re the written word ? ?make sure you are happy for a judge to read what ever you have written? ? great advise ? I am very careful. Thankfully there haven?t been too many emails between us anyway ? usually just to confirm when he?s coming to pick up DS and what DS?s plans are if any.

Something else I have just thought about ? I had meant to ask earlier ? is it possible for a father to get PR without the mother being informed?
I ask because during visit 2 xp was arguing that if he had to take DS to get his hair cut he should be allowed more time ? I said that I had made arrangements and I would need him back for 2pm (giving him just over 3 hrs) ? he said he would see, so I told him that if he was not back by 2:15 at the latest I would consider DS to be abducted and call the police ? his response to that was that he had PR and therefore would not be considered to have abducted him no matter what time he brought him back ? if at all.
Can this be true? We were not and never have been married to each other. DS was born before the law changes in Dec 2003 -

Unmarried fathers automatically acquire parental responsibility for a child if they are married to the mother (or subsequently marry her) or are present at the registration of the birth and father's name is on the birth certificate (if done after December 2003).

Other ways to acqurie PR is through an agreement with the mother or through a court order. If none of these apply in your case, then he does not have PR.

So could he have got a court order without me having to be informed?

I don't think so NewLP. My dh's x refused to sign the forms to give him PR so he applied to the Court. His x had to give reasons why she thought he shouldn't have it, which she couldn't, so the Court gave it, but she was definitely involved in the process, although it was all dealt with at the same time as the Contact Order.

Guess he was just bluffing for now then ? fully expecting to get it when he submitted the contact order ? which I didn?t know about at the time. Makes sense.
Thanks guy?s

Hi NewLP - reading your thread is spooky - I could have almost written this myself word for word - even down to me and my xh separating dec 05!!

I have two dd's who I firmly believe are more upset after x's contact with them. I have horrendous problems with them which then tails off after the two week period, to then start all over after the next visit! Their age group may go through similar things as a norm, but I believe that it is worse because of the situation they are in. After a particularly nasty incident, my two will not spend the night in their own beds.

My xh took me to Court for more access - he was NOT granted it at this present time. CAFCASS got involved, was told about his bad behaviour and didn't even want to speak to me - just told him that the access I had suggested was sufficient and would be reviewed in another few months. I have never stopped him from seeing the children but want it, like you, to go at their pace. He has been particularly verbally abusive to me on several occasions in front of the children and this I believe did not go in his favour. Stand firm in what contact you want him to have at this time, do not bad mouth him and be open to a little further access (show willing) and hopefully things will go your way, as they did for me.

Keep strong. CAT me if you like.

How did you get on with your solicitor NewLP?
( Changed name from beejay has got bored with it...)

Sorry: as not has