trying to compromise with baby's dad :( help!!

[MummySunshine]

Hi all,

I'm 18 weeks pregnant - and not with my baby's father (we were never together). My main problem right now (and believe me there are many others) is that me and BF have had a discusson about arrangements when the baby's born and reached a brick wall. He's left me feeling unsure as to whether I'm being unreasonable or not, but I strongly feel like I haven't done anything wrong.

I mentioned to him that when the baby is small, i.e unable to tell me about his or her day, that I'd like to know who's spending time with them while they're under his care. As much as I don't get along with him I've always been sure to include him in the pregnancy, inviting him to scans and keeping him updated as well as buying a car seat and cot for him to have as he's more concerned about spending money on his new car that he bought 'with the baby's best interests at heart'.

He kicked off about this, and said he refuses to be 'checked up on' and that I should trust him and his friends, and that I'm being nosey and selfish. I've tried to explain to him that it has nothing to do with me trusting him or his friends, that I'm not accusing him of being irresponsible, I just think I deserve as a mother to know who is spending time with my baby.

If he really point blank refuses to do this, I'm going to feel uncomfortable leaving my baby with him, and it's getting me so distraught (pregnancy hormones prob not helping). If this was to go to court, what are mine and his rights concerning access? I'm under the impression that the mother has most rights, I would never want to deny my child of a father, but would it be possible if I felt it necessary to insure supervised visits between him and the child? This is not at all what I wanted, but I feel if he won't cooperate he leaves me with no choice. Am I really being unreasonable? I feel that I'm only taking an interest in my babys life.

Thanks

S x

If you bf for first six months and don't introduce solids til 6 months then as per WHO guidelines, then you and the baby are going to have to be pretty close by. If you are an on-demand breast-feeder it will be a couple more months at least before you can predict how long the baby can go without a top up. So the little and often will probably be centrered around your home.
Another point to remember is that small babies can need what seems like a trunk of stuff to get from a-b - nappies, change of clothes, lots of layers depending on the weather etc, etc. These things are vital at the time but soon grown out of. So it is likely you and the dad - unless you can afford to double up on a lot of stuff will be in each other's company.
Worries are probably hormones and will get worse (it's just hormones) so don't worry too much about the future. Concentrate on building a workable relationship with Dad now, work out if you want him to go to antenatal classes with you, be there for labour/birth, then just take it slowly. One thing about babies is that whatever you plan for or anticipate turns out to be totally different. Concentrate on the pregnancy for now, think about the birth and see what happens afterwards. He may be scared witless or he could be a useful parent when the time comes.

Littlemiss, excellent explanation. The child has the rights to see both parents and courts will uphold that position. Courts are now more aware of hostile parents and there is growing awareness of parent alienation syndrome.

However most parents can relate to your caution but you must negotiate agreements with the other parent, rather than dicate the approach. A more positive approach would be to suggest joint parenting boundaries. Your further update clarified that you are looking to share info with your ex so maybe by suggesting parenting rules you will achieve greater consenus and co-operation.
Children benefit signifcantly where parents have been able to co-parent HOWEVER it isn't easy for the adults to do..but that's the parenting challenge, genuinely putting the children first.

Well said. Children have rights and both parents have responsibility from birth. It is just that fathers sometimes have to enforce those responsibilities via court when mothers place obstacles in the way of them exercising those responsibilities.

It's really early days for you to be setting down rules for what will happen when your baby is born.

You have no idea (none of use ever do!) how you are going to feel when your baby is here, so any arrangement that seems reasonable and sensible now may seem completely unreasonable when your baby arrives.

Just take it slowly and keep on involving him in the pregnancy - and try to enjoy it!

(By the way, why are you buying things for him? If you're going to be a single parent, there's a good chance you've got a period of being on a very low income ahead of you. Let him buy his own stuff if he wants to be involved!)

Just give him a chance, its in your childs best interests to do so believe me!

I have managed to keep a civil relationship with my EX and have not involved courts, despite a very acrimonious split!

Its hard when it goes wrong when you're pregnant as pregnancy tends to mean you are 'over emotional' but honestly, just try to be relaxed and calm.

I am very accomodating with my EX and I know that one day in the future my kids will thank me for it. My EX already has! and I never thought that day would come.

However unsuitable you and your EX are, you have made a lovely baby together and he/she deserves to have 2 parents in his/her life.

I wish you a healthy and calm pregnancy and good luck with the baby when he/she arrives.

As others have pointed out legally Parental Responsibility gives parents equal responsibility and rights to carry out those responsibilities. If a father doesn't have PR it is mostly a case of formality for a court to grant it. Contact is for the benefit of children and for very young children that is usually little and often so the child can bond with the father too.

What needs to be remembered is that potentially there are many years of parenting together before the child becomes independent and it is so much easier for everyone, in particular the child, when separated parents learn to work together. If when the child is born you cannot agree arrangements between you an impartial mediator could work with you both to come up with a parenting agreement. A parenting agreement isn't legally binding but they clearly set out the arrangements that should work for everyone. See;-

www.theparentconnection.org.uk/co-parenting.aspx

Good contact for children depends on parents working together. Children learn by example and if communication between their natural parents is poor they don't learn to relate properly so that they have difficulty with their own relationships in adulthood. It is much better for children if they grow up not having to behave as though they are walking on eggshells together. Going through the courts is best avoided whenever possible because it causes resentment and resistance which can be very destructive to long term family relationships.

'if communication between their natural parents is poor they don't learn to relate properly so that they have difficulty with their own relationships in adulthood.'

This is possible but not inevitable. Children aren't only exposed to parents.

littlemisssarcastic it depends where you are. NOt all Mumsnet users live in the UK. I live where I am given automatic PR and fathers who aren't married have to go via a court to gain them and even then it is not guaranteed they will get them. So in my case mothers do get most rights. OP whereabouts are you?

KatharineClifton wrote;

*'if communication between their natural parents is poor they don't learn to relate properly so that they have difficulty with their own relationships in adulthood.'

This is possible but not inevitable. Children aren't only exposed to parents.*

The overwhelming evidence in the UK from leading psychiatrists is that children who are insecure about their natural parentage and identity tend to grow up with low self esteem leading to emotional and behavioural problems later such as teenage pregnancies and dysfunctional adulthood relationships.

Wall LJ who is the most senior family court judge in England & Wales summed it up;-

"Each parent represents 50% of L's gene pool. Children, moreover, learn about relationships between adults from their parents. In twenty years time it will not matter a row of beans whether or not L spent x or y hours more with one parent rather than the other: what will matter is the relationship which L has with her parents, and her capacity to understand and engage in mutually satisfying adult relationships. If she is given a distorted view of adult relationships by her parents, her own view of them will be distorted, and her own relationships with others ? particularly with members of the opposite sex ? will be damaged."

STIDW,

I recognise that quote from Wall LJ though I suspect I am misreading him on the issue of the level of contact being irrelevant. Do you have the citation for the case?
The evidence would suggest that every aspect of a child's development is affected by lack of paternal involvement or poor quality of paternal involvement.
This is research that I am aware of, although I'm sure I have seen others on various websites:

1. ?The Role of Father Involvement and Mother Involvement in Adolescents' Psychological Well-being? - Dr Eirini Flouri and Dr Ann Buchanan, British Journal of Social Work (2003) 33, 399-406

1. ?The role of father involvement in children's later mental health? - Dr Eirini Flouri and Dr Ann Buchanan. Journal of Adolescents (2002) Published by Elsevier Science Ltd.

1. ?Early father's and mother's involvement and child's later educational outcomes? - Dr Eirini Flouri and Dr Ann Buchanan. British Journal of Educational Psychology (2004)

1. ?Involved Fathers Key For Children? ? Dr Eirini Flouri and Dr Ann Buchanan for The Economic and Social Research Council (2002)

1. ?The Impact of Parental Involvement on Children?s Education? - The Department for Education and Skills (2003)

Unfortunately if you have a baby with someone you are not in agreement with then you are going to have to negotiate and compromise. Your desires don't automatically override everyone else's. I can understand how you feel but I am afraid I'm with him. If you want your baby to have a father then you have to buy into the whole package. Plenty of parents - even parents living together - have to put up with the other parent doing stuff with their kids that they don't particularly like.

FlissFloss I hadn't considered we may be in different countries. I apologise.
It may have been more helpful to the OP if we'd stated which countries we live in for the sake of this thread, since we may be offering advice that wouldn't affect OP.

OP, Which country are you in?

I'm in England UK. Which country are you in FlissFloss?

littlemisssarcastic I'm in the ROI :) Although I do assume the OP is in UK.

Uh, there's absolutely nothing wrong with you knowing what your baby has been up to while you are away from it! This is why nurseries etc keep diaries/daily sheets so parents can see that- apart from anything else you need to know if anything's come up that you need to keep an eye on wrt illness or allergies etc. I don't get the imrpession that you're asking for extreme levels of detail, just a general idea of what they've been doing. Have you thought about having a baby diary to pass over at handover so you have that kind of record without having to talk to him too much if he gets arsey like this? You can tell him it's fairly standard for pre-verbal children (my ex and I are ok to talk, but if we weren't I would want some kind of record and at one point we did this via email- me to him too so he knew what she'd been doing and how she was generaly e.g. if she'd slept badly the night before). However I doubt he would be taking the baby off for long periods on its own at first- if you think about it even when couples are together this normally doesn't happen, as the baby needs to be fed pretty frequently by the mother for the first 6 months unless you bottlefeed. So actually you'd probably be starting with him just taking the baby for a walk in a carrier to bond with it, or coming to yours/you going to his/meeting in a cafe so he can spend time with the baby. Really no court is going to order a newborn to go for alternate weekends (at least not until the fathers rights nutjobs get their way, by which point probably pregnant women will be locked up and forced to hand over their baby to the man before the placenta is delivered, then get sent the nappies to wash while getting stitched or something). What it's going to be (if you do things in the interests of the baby) is contact most days for bits of time.

Lol at all the people apparently thinking absent fathers are just gagging at the bit to get their 'responsibilities' for their children. Why do you all think we have the CSA then? And why is it that said fathers go on about 'their rights' rather than 'their responsibilities'? Nice try at pretending we live in some kind of post-feminist utopia, but you might want to get your hearing tested.

I have never thought absent fathers are gagging to take responsibility for their DC. My own XP is a rubbish father...but I have also been through court...first to have my DD returned to me when she was abducted, then to arrange contact...then to rearrange contact. Since then I have had various unsubstantiated allegations of neglect and abuse made to SW's, had to attend various meetings to prove my worthiness as a mother...paediatricians, Gp, Health Visitor, social workers, family support workers along with a few more appts with solicitors.
This has all been in the last 2 years, so I certainly don't pretend to live in a post feminist utopia. That is quite offensive to people who are only trying to help and suggests you know better than anyone else wrt fathers and their responsibility to their DC. Of course if you do, you'd also know that nurseries and childminders do keep records but they don't have PR, and they are regulated by Ofsted, not like parents who are not regulated by Ofsted, and who do have PR. It is a different set of rules in a childcare setting. A parent is only obliged to share information about a child if it is a serious matter, this does not include whether they haven't slept the night before or whether they ate greggs for their lunch. This is the reason why it is best for both parents if co parenting remains as amicable as possible which it appears the OP would like.

I don't think anyone on this thread is pretending to live in some sort of Utopia, they are just aware of the system and how it works.

FWIW, I personally think court ordered access is a complete pile of wank, not worth the time and effort of going to court. That's just my opinion. Court orders for access hold no water AFAIC and haven't helped me or countless others like me.

I could've said 'OP..do what you want, it will make no difference to you, only your child. Don't bother with courts and don't bother to compromise with the baby's father.'

Instead, I always hope that new parents at least attempt to arrange things amicably and compromise before they travel down the futile road that is the legal route to access etc.

The only benefit court ever gave me was full residency of my daughter.

The reason we have the CSA is so the govt can claim to be doing something to help seperated parents to receive financial support for their DC, when in most cases, nothing is done. The CSA are as farcical as the family courts issuing contact orders.

Alot of men are twats and irresponsible fathers, yes, no one is denying that, but there are some that do take responsibility...and for all we know, OP's baby's father may be one of them. He, like all new fathers deserves the chance before being written off surely??

By stressing the mother of his child out whilst pregnant. A real king amongst men!

To be fair, she is stressing herself out.

To be fair, she is pregnant. EVERYTHING goes through your mind when pregnant.

I would imagine he has a fair bit going through his mind at the moment too.

Trouble with men in situations like this, they are damned if they do, damned if they dont!

The onus seems to be on him to 'prove' himself and he appears to have been written off already, but its only 18 weeks in!

Give him a chance FFS!

AmberLeaf Have you ever been left on your own whilst being pregnant? Seriously STFU. His needs aren't important while the OP is carrying a child. Stress can make her lose the baby ffs. If he is anyway decent he will be trying to reassure the Op everything will be ok and will be doing whatever he can do to make she is comfortable during her pregnancy. Any man worth his salt would do anything to ensure the health of his unborn child. Regardless if he's with the mother or not.

OP, are there things about this man that make you worried about how he will treat a baby? Is he, for instance, a druggie or the sort of bloke who will spend all afternoon in the pub with the baby ignored in the pushchair? If so, pull back and let him take you to court for access.
However, if your issue is down to the fact that he has refused to have a relationsip with you and may have or be looking for a female partner, you're going to need to get over that and sort out a workable relationship with him. A good co-parent is a wonderful thing to have.