please advise on contact arrangements

[stressedatbest]

Short background. Ex and I split when dd was weeks old. She is now almost 4. He has always had regular contact, is a good dad etc and I've worked hard to avoid a business like arrangement between us. DD goes for overnights twice a week. We dont always get on but I never refuse contact/reasonable requests for extra time etc. He is a pushy person, and is married to quite a controlling woman who pushes him on stuff, and he then hassles me over it. Now for example, he is pushing for half of all school holidays. I'm more than happy for dd to go in each half term hols for an extra day or two ( on top of her twice weekly overnights). She also has a 2 week foreign hol with him, so he sees her alot, but I object to half of all hols, on the basis that as a school teacher, i am able to provide her with care, whereas in the holidays, his wife is the one who ends up looking after her. He has just had a baby, so says that this factor is irrelant as she needs to see her sister, I agree with this,but don't feel that dd should be there for 3-4 days when she has a willing parent who is free to care for her.
Secondly, this is not the staus quo - it is something new that he ( she) is pushing for. I am from another country, so usually use the half terms to see my parents, his proposals means that I would see them less, as would my DD who needs this valuable time to see her extended family. He and his wife say that we effectively have 'joint custody', so I need to ask him when I'm taking her away, and on all other issues as well. I undertand that he has PR, but as neither of us have been to court, I'm not sure what they mean by this, but do feel worried. I should make it crystal clear that I am not in any way trying to limit contacvt between dd and her dad - he sees her lots, but they interpret every single action I make as 'obstructive' and I feel I cant win. They have mentioned court action against me.

Please could someone tell me where I stand? ;(

If it goes to court I'm pretty sure 1/2 the holidays is standard, sorry I know it may not be what you want to hear.

Thanks again Gilly. You're right that I think we need to talk just the two of us. I'vw just recently suggested to ex that we communicate via email only as the talk we had last week was diastrous and I was very upset by the outcome of it. I know in my heart that raising our child via email is ridiculous but I need a little time for things to calm down. The thing that worries me about ex is that he is very confident,both of them talk 'legal' to me regarding his rights - something I do not do as I think it is inflammatory. His recent change in attitude has left me increasingly worried about saying no to anything ( hence the overnight stays with wife) as I feel he will just go to the school and take her anyway. So for example, if I object to a particular night for a reason relating to dd interests -( its rare) i think he will simply take dd and return her the following day as normal. He has pr so wouldn't be breaking any laws, but that would be dreadful situation for everyone to be in. I think he would see this as an easier option to court/mediation. If I dont have residency, there wouldnt be anything I could do about that would I?

didyouever - yes I know in my heart it'd end up that way, but ex is being a fool if he thinks this kind of newfound inflexibility is his idea of 'winning'. I dont think he has thought it through - he often asks for extra time ad hoc if his parents are visiting for example, or to collect her early if they want to go out (I do too). A court order would spell the end of all that.

No it wouldn't - unless you want to play 'tit for tat' games in your power struggle. Court orders represent a minimum or general pattern - asking for minor alterations for child-centred reasons are not forbidden. You know yourself that DD is happy with them but needs to get used to longer periods - how is it going to move forwards? And I don't get how you can say that having 3 or 4 days has this terrible effect on her but a 14 day holiday is fine?

I didn't say a 14 day holiday was fine though, did I? But there are things I can accept that need to happen and this is one of them. Having her for 4 nights though, to be returned to me for one night then back to dads the following night is not right for her. I know my dd.

Balia- power struggle? I came here for advice, not insulted.

OP - unfortunatey you get a lot of polarised opinion on here and will be accused of all sorts. it so depends which side of the fence you are on. i totally understand your concerns, as i share them in respect of my kids, as you know. i hope you can find a way of resolving this without going to court, as in my experience they take nothing into consideration.

Thank you Wish. It seems Balia has some agenda to promote, hence the unnecessary assumption that I'm out for power struggle. Just for the record. I would never come on an advice board and matter of factly insist that 50-50 is right for anyone else's child. As many people on here have pointed out - it can only work when the parents are in agreement. It is not enough to simply say 'its the child's right' - a one-size fits-all approach is damaging to say the least.

Hi stressedatbest.

Just wanted to offer some supportive words really. It seems that the courts often rule half the holidays for school age children (presumably your dd is not at school yet) but it sounds you have been reasonably successful in sorting out access arrangements between yourselves in the past until OW started sticking her oar in. Your dd is still quite young for half the holidays IMO and you obviously know her better than anyone else and there is also the fact that she's never actually lived full time with her father. I don't think my 4 year old DD would cope with half the holidays at the moment and I'm managing to avoid it as I also have a 2 year old (and ex keeps going away during holidays and then moans about not seeing the kids enough even when it's not my fault). Mediation might be your way forward as you would be able to discuss things with someone else there and not the other woman involved. At the moment it's 2 against 1 which isn't fair.

Regarding your dd's relationship with his new family - this could go either way, either your dd will love going to see the new baby or she will feel pushed out by it. There are no guarantees that it will all be rosy.

I think the fact you are available in the school holidays to look after dd is also a valid point. As a teacher myself I know how manic term time can be and appreciate time with my children during the holidays and it seems madness for her to go to her dad's to be looked after by her stepmum who at the moment might be spending half the time feeding the baby which would be quite isolating for dd. The point of contact is for her to have a relationship with her dad.

I am also getting a bit p'd people on here who keep harping on about 50-50 being best for the child. It isn't best for all children and it is best for all parents either. People post of here for advice and a bit of support not a lecture on what is best for their kids from someone who doesn't know them.

yes, sometimes it doesn't matter what you say, what examples you give, how carefully you word it - someone will come along and argue the direct opposite of what you are saying. i guess that's life though - there will always be people who think exactly the opposite to you. and there will also always be people who manage to find a way of arguing the exact opposite to you, just for the sake of it. but in the case where you are asking for advice, it's not hugely helpful for people to tell you there is no problem or that it is all of your own making. even if they think it is (which no doubt some people will), it's still not helpful.

So how much access should be allowed then?
And who decides?

If the separation is amicable there are no need for court orders.
So in a split that isn't amicable what should be the decision?

it shold be in best interests of the child. the book separated parents -i was reading last night - points out that strict 50/50 isnt necesarily in best interest but doesnt really go into research or why - maybe speak to them ?

www.separatedfamilies.info/families-1/handbook/

maybe they have some research?

however i do know one family who separated and the son happily went one week on/off with each parent

didyouever - do you really think there is an answer to your first question? or your last question.

it's either however much access the parents agree; or whatever the court forces upon them. there is no right answer to this question, unfortunately. and even if there were for today, who knows what might happen tomorrow, which might change the picture (new partner / new baby / illness / relocation due to job).

as to what the decision should be if the courts decide? well - whatever they decide basically. and you can rest assured, if it follows the same process as my case, the decision will be based on magistrates reading a couple of pages of written submissions and then ... just deciding. no background. no context. no detail. apparently that isn't necessary if the children aren't being abused. and since you don't need to demonstrate any positive benefit to the children from shared residence, a 50-50 split is clearly a catch-all answer where there is no abuse or neglect.

Mrscolour - wise words, thank you. Its too easy for my ex to wheel out the 'you're being obstructive' argumnent every time something doesn't go his way. Similarly, its too easy for people on here to wheel out the blanket 50-50 argument for tiny children who've never known their lives any other way than it is now.

There are too many variables, too many grey areas to be considered for one. And more importantly, they are human beings. I've had my ex waiting outside my front door for me to come back from the doctors with my very ill child. She had just had a burst ear drum, hadnt slept in 20 hours and was in agony. He took her from me, because it was 'his day'. Is that ok too? It seems that no matter how many examples given, there will be a way of arguing the same 50-50 story. I am staggered at how many people have such a unrealistic expectations of women on here to swallow primal urges to want their children near them. We need to wipe out half a million years of evolution apparantly,. because you say so.

Er, no.

stressedatbest - you are right. it is a primal urge. the closest i can come to describing it is when you see dumbo's mum go mad when he is tormented by the boy in the film. and then you see her locked up because he is taken off her. that was i how i felt on thurs / fri after the hearing. i was wailing, shaking, rocking. i was shaking uncontrollably. i was trying to pull my own hair out. i cried and cried and screamed. i must have sounded like i was actually insane. i was like a wild beast that had had its cub taken off it.

don't tell me that ex feels like that. don't tell me he has ever felt like that. it doesn't mean he doesn't miss the kids, and want them. but there is no way he has the same physical response to being separated from them. after all, he goes away every weekend he doesn't have them and there are pics on facebook of him partying it up. maybe he is the more sorted one as he has moved on and is reconciled to the separation from the children. but i can't move on. the need for my children is too strong. and it's like a raw, raw wound when they are away. i can't stick a plaster over it and go off for the weekend.

i am ok now - they are with me. but by tomorrow night i will be sobbing again.

I'm sorry Wish, but your experience at court is not the norm in the legal system. You may have just been very unlucky because magistrates do not normally hand out 50/50 care orders like sweeties.

Attitudes to parenting and Fathers do need changing because the current attitudes that Dad isn't as important as Mum is why so many think it is ok for a man to walk away from their children.

OP, you asked where you stand and somehow it has got onto a discussion beyond that. Gillybean has posted several posts advising where you will stand. And that is if it got to court, there is a high chance your ex would get half of all holidays. You could argue that you are available when the ex is working and it will be down to the magistrate whether to change the norm of half of holidays to take that into consideration.

I think the bedwetting could be a behavioural thing and something to be concerned about, but could it just be that she was really tired and didn't wake, or a urine infection?

It's just that what you describe - about being unsettled and having to wait for her behaviour to calm down is exactly how my dsd used to be when she came to us. When she was with us for longer periods we could see her calm right down and people would comment on how different she was at the end of a week with us. And then she'd go back home, and on the next visit we'd start again.

Funnily enough, her mum used to complain of exactly the same thing, and now I am no longer with her Dad and our own dd goes to him, I initially saw the same thing happening. And from what I've gathered from others I think it's pretty par for the course.

I do think too that once you separate, having less time with your child and therefore less time to see extended family with them is sadly one of the things you just have to accept, as a family splitting up changes things for everyone involved.

No agenda, just an opinion, which you are quite free to ignore - although if all you were posting for was to have your opinion confirmed, you could have said so at the outset and saved some of us some time. I would have been happy to provide an virtual glass of wine and some support if you had said you were just finding things very difficult - I've been there with my DD and her Dad.

Many posters have said that half the holidays is a fair, reasonable and common arrangement. Your DD is not a tiny baby and she has - whether you accept it or not - another home and family who clearly want to spend time with her. Perhaps I have misinterpreted your posts and I have found some of your objections confusing and you seemed to say that if your ex took you to court and got a court order for half the holidays, you would no longer allow flexibility for child-centred events. And now you are getting very emotive about 50/50 (which your ex hasn't asked for).

Children's lives change all the time. We don't object to other changes because they've 'never known their lives any other way'. I think a relationship with Dad is important, I think Dads are just as capable of looking after sick children as women are, and yes, I think they love and miss their kids just as much as women. It's a teeny bit overblown, I feel, to object to the little one having an extra week with her Dad and family over the summer because it interferes with your 'primal urge'.

Choc and Bearing - thank you for your posts. Gilly has indeed posted some sound advice, as many of you have and I appreciate that. I also hear you when you say that the courts would be likely to award half of all holidays. My objection to half holidays is the fact that the sudden inflexibility of it all/splitting them right down the middle has prevented me from seeing my own family - not an easy pill to swallow given that I am have no family near me whatsoever, and that when DD is at their house, dad is often working. I think the thread veeered away from my orginal question slightly because I objected to the 50-50 basis that some posters felt i should be working from.
Balia, I don't like your assumption ( no, outright claim) that I am in a power struggle, and I find it bizzare that your default position when I disagreed with you, is to instantly attack my motives for wanting to protect my child from a disruptive schedule. Nowhere in my post did I say that I objected to her spending time with her other family, nowhere did I say that I would not allow flexibility, and I dont believe I mentioned an extra week in the summer hols at all.
As you say though, I'm quite free to ignore your opinion, as you have so clearly mine.

You're not going to like this, so you might want to skip it.

You say you want to be crystal clear, you're not trying to limit contact, but that's exactly what you are doing. For your own reasons. Right or wrong.

You describe you're ex as pushy numerous times, his partner is controlling. This all sounds familliar to me. My x felt alternate weekends was a totally unreasonable suggestion, my proposals were 'demands' , dealing with such an inflexible attitude left little choice but to suggest mediation and law. After my x realised that she could find no solicitor to agree with how outragous and unfair my 'demands' were she had little choice but to conceed. I was accused of 'bullying' her into submission.

I'm sorry, this is an open forum, you take the rough with the smooth. Maybe it's semantics but you come across as being quite difficult, maybe you're not at all i don't know you from Eve, but i bet my bottom dollar that is how your x and his partner view the situation.

not sure why 50/50 holidays prevents you taking dd on your share to visit family? if dates /flights are an issue then bring it to the table - some kind of compromise on dates etc but based around principle sharing holidays 50/50 across the year.

50/50 doesnt have to be split in one way or another - could be thrree weeks with you three with him or one week on one off or split weeks - or he ahs two weeks then you have two to go to family then he has two

then you have extra week in half term etc
this is where mediation around a calendar might help

half the holidays doesn't mean they are 'split down the middle'.
Yes some families do split each holiday exactly in half, but that isn't right for every situation.

With half terms you could split them, or you could alternate them - one with you, the next with dad etc. Over a two year cycle you get half of them but it various as to which.

Or you could suggest your ex has all the non pupil days instead. Which adds up to a week but obviously not all in one go and the dates change every year. Given that you are likely to be working on the non pupil days he may agree but expect him to think he's doing you a favour there rather than giving up a half term in exchange. But offering him all the non pupil days may help with compromises elsewhere.

But given that your family aren't that far away by plane it seems reasonable that you could visit them from fri evening till wed handover for a half week in each half term without too much problem isn't it? I think you do need to explain to your ex that the usual midweek contact will restart after the holidayd though and not continue in the holidays.
Also with your dd being younger and you getting school hols off regardless it may be better to go for the half week split in half terms, for the time being at any rate.

As to the main holidays, easter and xmas being 2 weeks it makes sense to split them. The biggest issue being how you split xmas. Are you wanting dd to be with you every xmas eve & morning? They probably want her there some xmas mornings, especially with a new sister there to share it with. So you may find a half holiday split with handover on xmas day works for your situation. Or you may do xmas even and morning with one and then swap to other parent after that. Xmas tends to be the hardest to agree on :(

SUmmer hols again many options. You can do half each, in 3 weeks on a row. Or 2 weeks with one, 2 weeks with other than oene week each of what's left. Or alternate 1 week each (harder if you want to go away for a fortnight though). Or you can do 10 days and then swap, so you get 2 lots of 10 days each. Or any other combination really.

It's not always a simple split the hols exactly in half...

There are a lot of wise words in this thread.

My DD is 2.5 years. And as far as the holidays go I suggested 50:50 but considering DD's age I wouldn't want to separate her from her mum for weeks on end. So I use my holidays from work in small chunks throughout the year.

This also works well for my XP. If something comes up in her life I'm able to take DD for a few days. Compromise and flexibility are to everyone's benefit especially your DD.

You mention that he'd be a fool to go to court as he'd loose his flexibility. You both would of course. But as per my previous post. He may feel you are being obstructive and that he has no other option. The more amenable he feels you are being, the more compromises he's likely to make IMO

Thank you for your responses.

Ex is insisting they are split as he says he needs to see her in these times as well. He has a weekend night and a mid week night so says i need to arrange visits to family in between. In the forthcoming half term therefore, my dd and I cannot see our extended family because I've been unable to arrange/afford the flights available in these days. My movements are being controlled, yet Gster, you say I'm controlling.
He has asked for dd to be be with him this fri-tue. I have agreed. He insists he will still return the day after to collect her as its 'his day'. This means she will see for 2 days out of 7, and neither of us will not see my family.

Still think I'm unreasonable?

He spent a week on a foreign hol recently, and still insisted on dd being looked after by his wife. I didn't argue this, it wasn't worth it. He asked me to swap my weekends around to accomodate his holiday. I agreed.
My brother was visiting last weekend, and I asked him to return her to me one hour early so he couid see her. He refused.I asked him to allow me to take her on his day recently to her school open day. He refused. Said I could go alone and feed back the information to him.
He has told me that when his wifes working shifts change in a few months time, I need to be prepared to change the midweek day to suit their childcare arrangements. He has protected this day ferociously for months, but now I need to be prepared to change it when it suits their life.

For the record, lest I be miscontrued (again). I have no objections to extra time with her in the hols. I object to the inflexibility and one-sided nature of this arrangement. Before they had another baby we had an ad hoc mid week arrangement. Some times he had dd, sometimes he didnt. He asked me in Jan to begin the regular week day thing as it suited their other childcare arrangements. I agreed. I had no idea that I would come under hell fire for occassionally modifying these days in my dd's interests. I stand by my belief that it is not unreasonable of me to expect that if my ex insists on my dd's bum being on their seat, then he is available to care for her. The odd time is fine, but is working every day she is there?

I need to make you aware that I have tried very hard with ex and his wife. See my other posts if you need to. I've invited them to dd's parties, including his wife's parents, I send presents for all of them and took dd to buy a present for her sister when she was born, I take dd to visit his family (he doesn't) and send them picture etc, I send fathers day presents, offered (and he accepted) a reduction in maintenence for dd when they had another baby and always encourage dd to talk about or phone her dad. My efforts are wasted - they say I need to stop sending gifts as they don't want them and its 'weird', - say I'm tryng to be his wife's friend.
Ex has never acknowledged mothers day, is awkward about letting dd speak to me when she's there, says dd 'never even mentions me' during their 2 weeks holiday with her, he refused to come interview our new childminder with me, but arranged to do a separate interview with his wife....I could go on and on.
If there is any parental alienation on my part, it genuinely isnt me. I actually don't know how much more I could do to get him on side.