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Lone parents

Use our Single Parent forum to speak to other parents raising a child alone.

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Original poster

Ex left DS aged 4 in house while he went out. Advice please

24 replies

princessfifi9 · 18/04/2011 20:27

I am hoping for some wisdom from mumsnet on the following situation...

DS came home today from ex's house and told me that this morning he had been left at home with his 10 year old half-brother while ex went out on an errand.
To me this is totally unacceptable as accidents can happen in an instant and he should not be left without an adult in the house.

I have told ex that this should not happen and must not happen again and he has basically told me that he will do what he wants and to butt out.

I told him that it is illegal and not acceptable and he has told me that if I don't like it then DS doesn't have to stay again.

I have tried hard to keep contact going but feel ex is not interested. Am heartbroken for DS.

Thanks for reading

OP posts:

TheOriginalFAB · 18/04/2011 20:28

Call his bluff and don't let your son stay with him then.

GypsyMoth · 18/04/2011 20:37

its not illegal

is there a court order?

pinkheart · 18/04/2011 20:46

this happened to me also a few weeks ago, it wasnt till we were sitting up table that ds2 (he is 5 in june) told me that daddy had gone to the shops and let him stay at home and watch tv !!!!!!!!!!! i was not impressed to say the least. i still cant believe he did it. makes me wonder how many other times he has done it.
we have such different parenting values.
and too make things worse he works in a childrens home and doesnt see the things he is doing to our children are things that happened to the children in the care home and they were removed from their parnetal care/homes for neglect.
ex dp has also said the same about if i dont like to sort other arrangements out. he had been having ds2 once a week to "help me out" while i go to work!! ds2 goes to nursery the other 4 days a week and doesnt seem to see that its both our responsibilty to organise childcare.

does your ex pay any maintenance at all? mine doesnt and has told me point blank if i try to get money from him he will move and then the boys wont see him. so i end up feeling bad as ds2 worships him and then i will end up being the bad parent for driving ex away..

Original poster

princessfifi9 · 18/04/2011 20:58

Thanks for your comments.

Tillytulip - We don't have a court order, just an agreement that he has DS every other weekend.
I think it is illegal for a 4 year old to be cared for by a 10 year old. Although there is no fixed age at which a child is deemed ?safe? to be left at home alone, the law says that a parent commits an offence if leaving the child on their own puts them at ?risk.? You have to consider whether the child could cope in an emergency.

pinkheart - I used the CSA to get maintenance.
I really feel for you too. Your ex seems to be like mine and I struggle to understand why his values are so different from mine and if he actually cares about DS.

OP posts:

Spero · 18/04/2011 21:04

The difficulty is there is no fixed age or fixed set of circumstances which makes this 'illegal' - it would be a judgment call for the police/CPS if they wanted to prosecute depending on circumstances.

What I would need to know if this was a child protection issue is
a) how long was he gone
b) where had he gone - pub? to buy drugs? to get milk?
c) what were the circs in which he was left (how responsible is the other child? Was the environement safe? dangerous dogs prowling about? etc)

If he had popped out for five mins to get some milk and 10 year old is sensible, I would say no problem.

You have to weigh up the risk your son was in against the harm that you will do him by not allowing his father in his life.

corlan · 18/04/2011 21:20

Same thing happened with my youngest about 7 years ago. XP left my 5 year old in a hotel room with his girlfriend's 11 year old so that he and the girlfriend could go boozing. Even worse, the 11 year old went off to find her mother and left my 5 year old on her own - not the 11 year old's fault of course.

I read the ex and his girlfriend the riot act and he never did it again.

Is there a third party such as a relative or friend that he respects that could have a word with him and try and put your point of view across? It may just be a pride thing that he doesn't want to be told by you how to look after your DS.

Of course, if he's really not interested in his DS, it doesn't matter what you do.He will find an excuse further down the line to stop seeing him.

berrieberrie · 19/04/2011 08:29

I know it all depends on how responsible the children are but I left my dd when 4 with her 12 year old SS if I needed to pop to shop, library, recycle bank etc. Prob half hour max. I wouldn't have gone out on a bender or 2 hours shopping but SD has a mobile, they both know the rules in the house (don't answer the door/ use the oven etc etc... I don't see the problem to be honest.
Their dad has just as much rights as you and he hasn't broken the law so I don't think there is a lot you can do.
You need to tell him your feelings about it, and ask him to respect them. But if he doesnt then you have to just accept it I'm afraid. (from someone who has had to learn to accept ex's 'parenting' style)

Original poster

princessfifi9 · 19/04/2011 17:22

Thanks very much for all your comments.
I don't agree that it is ok to leave a 4 year old in the care of a 10 year old.
I have accepted his parenting style in relation to other issues but not on this as I feel it is a safety issue.
If something happened and he was hurt and I had not spoken out I would never forgive myself.

OP posts:

VivaLeBeaver · 19/04/2011 17:26

I know someone with a 10yo and 6yo who has been charged by the police for this.

berrieberrie · 19/04/2011 17:34

what? charged? on what grounds?How long were they left for?

VivaLeBeaver · 19/04/2011 17:35

They were left for 6 hours. Charge is wilful neglect I believe.

berrieberrie · 19/04/2011 17:45

6, hours fair enough... I got the impression from the op that it was something like posting a letter or going to the post office.

VivaLeBeaver · 19/04/2011 17:48

Would be useful to know how long OP's children were left for - she doesn't say.

I know that leaving kids for 6 hours is a lot worse than 10/20 mins - there is more time for something to go wrong. Would the police have the same view though? Or would they think that an emergency could happen in a 10 minute window so its just as bad?

balia · 19/04/2011 18:37

We had this, only the other way round - DSS's mother was leaving him in the house alone (he was around the same age as OP's DS) while she walked her older son to the bus stop for school - say, 10 mins there, 10 back, plus waiting for the bus - maybe half an hour? DH was horrified but his sol said there wasn't anything he could do about it as there wasn't a law against it, just a judgement call. DSS wasn't left with an older child, though, not sure about the legality of that. FWIW, DS didn't come to any harm, not much consolation, I know, but if it was just for a short time I wouldn't be stopping contact (which I know is not what you are doing, but you know what I mean)

Ex's comments were probably a defensive reaction - people can get cross if you tell them their parenting is unacceptable, and lots of people seem to think nipping out for a quick errand is OK.

Original poster

princessfifi9 · 19/04/2011 18:49

Hi.

VivaLeBeaver - My DS told me that he was left while ex drove his DP to the station. Ex put their 2 year old in the car but left my 4 year old DS with his half-brother in the house. I'm not sure how long it was but I am guessing half an hour in the morning traffic.

OP posts:

Asinine · 19/04/2011 18:53

Are there any laws generally about the standard of care for dcs having contact with the non resident parent? A friend of mine is worried that her exPs house is squalid, eg dead mice lying around, her ds is exposed to inappropriate games for age, eg grand theft age 7, and being driven without proper carseats/belts whilst exP has been drinking. He denies it all but her DD14 is a reliable witness. She can't afford to take him to court.

Sorry if hijacking but it is on topic, about one parent objecting to the parenting standard of another.

OP I agree that a 10 year old should not be resposibe for a 5 year old. Accidents do happen and the 10 year old would not be responsible enough in an emergency.

Spero · 19/04/2011 19:29

op, I don't want to downplay your fears, which are obviously real, but statistically your son would have been at far greater risk of death or serious in the car for half an hour than indoors with the 10 year old.

If you have a look at previous threads about leaving children alone, you will see there is a very wide range of opinion about what is acceptable, which I think is reflected in the current state of the criminal law.

Spero · 19/04/2011 19:34

Asinine - there aren't any general universally accepted standards, so far as I know. Its generally down to common sense - children have a right to be kept safe and the younger a child the more active the parent has to be in keeping the environment safe.

If a child is being driven in a car without a seatbelt by someone who has been drinking, that child should not be having unsupervised contact with that person as there are obvious and immediate risks to that child.

The other issues you describe are obviously not great, but imo not necessarily enough to put brakes on child's relationship with a parent.

QueenofWhatever · 20/04/2011 08:48

I can see why you're concerned but I have gone to get a pint of milk etc. (10 minutes) and left my daughter (6) on her own. I've done this since she was about four. Not everyone will agree with me on this, but I also think it is quite a British thing. I was brought up in a more European way and it is considered much more culturally acceptable.

ChristinedePizan · 20/04/2011 09:00

I would (and have) left my 4 year old with his 10 YO cousin for 1/2 an hour. The 10 year old takes himself to and from school every day and lets himself into the house and is alone for 1/2 an hour so is perfectly competent.

Abr1de · 20/04/2011 09:06

Both my two would have been fine to leave in charge of younger siblings aged ten if it was just for ten minutes.

tomtommum · 20/04/2011 15:31

I have left my son, now 8, alone while i pop across the road to get milk. Wouldn't ever leave him more than 5 minutes though. Some of my friends with children find this really shocking. If I have to get in the car for whatever reason, albeit for a 5 minute round trip he has to come with me.

Everyone has different views on this, about what they do or do not feel safe about. A friend came over to pick up her son, she lives 2 minutes down the road, and had left her 5 year old at home in the bath, which I personally don't agree with at all. (That said, another friend was putting the rubbish out, front door slammed, and got locked out - with her 3 year old upstairs in the bath. That certainly did cause panic !) I think what it boils down to, for me at least, is that I don't have 100% trust in my ex and know that when he says he is popping out for 5 minutes he is capable of coming back 2 hours later, whereas I know that when I am popping out for 5 minutes it really is just that.

I know things are "different" now, but when I was 13 or 14 I often babysat for my parents' friends whose children were as young as 2. Back in the good old days of no mobiles either....

Spero · 20/04/2011 19:59

I think you need to be absolutely honest with yourself about what is going on here.

If you genuinely think that his behaviour was utterly unacceptable then you and he need to talk because obviously it is going to be difficult to co parent if you have very different standards and his way of doing things is going to get you upset and worried. He either needs to reassure you its ok or you both need to find a compromise - e.g. he could go out but for no more than 10 mins.

But if you are just looking for a reason to curtail contact, I think you need to consider that very carefully. You are going to have to weigh in the balance all the different kinds of harm that you could both do as parents. Making it difficult for your son to know his father is a kind of harm.

WMDinthekitchen · 22/04/2011 10:53

There is no legal minimum age for a child being home alone but here's some guidance

www.childrenslegalcentre.com/Legal+Advice/Child+law/Homealone/WhatagecanIleavemychildathomeontheirown

The real issue is for children to be safe. Some 12 year olds would not be safe home alone while others would be fine. Would a ten year old cope if the 4 year old fell and banged his/her head for example?

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