What's worst for a little boy- no daddy or nasty daddy?

[maledetta]

I was discussing this with a friend yesterday. Both of our sons' fathers are Not Good.

Her DS' father sees his son intermittently (he was around yesterday after 10 months of promising to turn up and never arriving), screams abuse at her on a regular basis, and, when he does turn up to see his son, doesn't seem to care for him all that much (was going to refuse to take car seat or child's bag with him on their day out, but his friend stepped in). Her DS, needless to say, adores his daddy.

My DS' father has shown very little interest in seeing his son since he was 4 weeks old(he is one now).Initially he did text a couple of times asking to see him- once, after 2 months of no contact, asking if he could bring his other 2 sons, DS' half brothers round to see us that afternoon. I replied both times that he couldn't come to see DS as and when he feels like it- we had to discuss making a consistent arrangement for him to see DS- to which I got no sensible answer.

However, since DS' father has met a new woman (a friend and employer's wife, whom he ran off with), who has 2 more small DS, he has made no further attempts to get in touch- yet seems to find it acceptable to turn up to local gatherings, showing what a caring "father" he is to his new GF's DSs, and his own older two, while ignoring our DS.(There is lots and lots of backstory to all this, but I couldn't type it all- my fingers would fall off!)

I realise I have ranted a little here-sorry.
But what we would like some feedback on is: what is better (or least bad)- to have an erratic, abusive and uncaring father, who pops up occasionally only to let you down, or one who is entirely absent? A counsellor once told me that it's better for a child to see his father, and realise he's fallible, rather than put an idealised version of him on a pedestal. Yet I read somewhere else that visits to the father if they are irregular, especially if the father is emotionally detached, can be damaging to a child.

Does anybody have their experiences to share? Or can anyone recommend any studies or books on the subject?

Please realise, also, that unfortunately, for me anyway, the choice of whether my DS sees his father or not is not mine to make - it's his fatner's. My only choice is whether to stop tearing myself apart about it.

Ooh i would be really interested to hear people responses to this.

I think i may have come to the conclusion that no daddy is better.

My DS dad is abusive and an addict. A terrible role model and not some one i want influencing my child.

I don't think hes going to change and i would rather be able to explain to my son that his dad loves him but is a bit of a plonker who finds any sort of relationship a bit tricky than DS be messed around, form relationships with some one who seems not to give a toss and come to his own conclusion about why his dad has decided not to be around.

like you say: My only choice is whether to stop tearing myself apart about it.

all you can do is be there for your DS. to klimit the damage - you cant avoid seeing Ds dad at a local gathering, presumably, so you jsut need to support DS and answer his questions truthfully.

i think postive role models for children are more important than who they are. if taht makes sense.

so i think a child will benefit more from having a positive mum, grandparents, friends' parents, mum's friends etc. so even if dad isn't the good sort the child will have enough good influences in tehir life to jopefully keep them on teh right path.

i do however beleive that children place a lot of importance on being like their parents, for approval, so it could so happen that regardless of how many positive influences tehre are around, the child's main objective will be to constantly get dad's approval.

it is a toughie. i think children have a right to know tehir parents and it should only be prevented if the child is at risk because of the contact.

Can i ask a genuine question (im not being fascias honestly), what qualifies as risk?

Because i have to accompany my DS' father on every visit because he turns up drunk or worse, sometimes from the night before and sometimes from the journey down and sometimes with can still in hand.

He was physically and emotionally abusive to me but never DS.

But is it my responsibility to make sure my DS maintains contact with his father?

I know a contact centre will probably be suggested but this is a man who bullied undermined me and physically scarred me, i cant even stand to be in the same room as him and i dont feel my son's old enough to do it on his own.

it is your responsibility to make sure your ds is available for contact, but it is your EX's responsibility to actually make the contact and maintain it. it is not up to you to pursue the relationship between them.

for me, him being drunk would be a risk TBH.

But what if that contact could actually be damaging the DS emotionally? (my friend's DS's father is also an alcoholic).

for me i would end contact that was emotionally damaging my child.

I was the child in a similar scenario.

Children need a secure, safe, relaxed, consistent environment in which to live, develop and thrive.

Any factor that prevents this should be removed.

You wouldn't necessarily know, though, until later, when they grew up into damaged individuals?

(FWIW, DS's half brothers are both apparently having issues with anger and aggression since he split up with their mum, got together with me, introduced them to me within days, dumped me when he found out I was PG, after months of them not seeing me moved me in with him and told them they were having a little brother, they got to meet and cuddle him, then he disappeared on us so they haven't seen their brother since, then almost immediately got together with this new woman and introduced them to her and her sons- one of whom has severe behavioural problems. Issues? You don't say...)

Ranty ranty rant...

It's a difficult one. My DD2 has never met her father, although we have recently tried to contact him - with no response.

She would really like to at least meet him, which I think would help her to have a picture in her mind of what he's like ie just a man who's not very good with relationships.

I tend to think that at least he hasn't been messing her about for the last 12 years. She has plenty of other good male role models around and is otherwise happy.

I think that sometimes men can be a bit, well, rubbish really.

X-posted with you Oopsadaisy....

What was your situation exactly? Did you just see your dad intermittently? Was he abusive? Or just not there? Looking back on it, how do you think contact with your dad should have been handled?

(Assuming it was your dad..)

What if having to maintain contact is having a negative affect on the sole parent of a child?

Are the feelings of a mother(in this case) irrelevant?

I would say no daddy is better. Ds's wants no contact, which is hard. However it is hugely preferable to sporadic contact where the father then uses the contact to say bad things about the mother.

They often seem to be so bristol! It can be difficult to be a calm and lovely mummy when you are screaming inside and every time you see the bastard it takes you a week to calm down...yet it seems to be something we are just expected to swallow- as well as get on with all the other business of raising a child on your own...

Seriously, this is what I'm wondering. With just the two of us, I sometimes think we have a near-idyllic haven of calm.It seems that contact with his father would have to have some very powerful positive benefits to outweigh the sheer angst, stress and disruption it would seem to cause.

bristol i think if the child is benefitting from the relationship then the parent with care has to put their feelings aside and persevere for their child's sake.

i know i would have been very angry with either of my parents if they had ended contact for me with the NRP just because they weren't happy with it.

X-posting -tastic!

maledetta.

My situation was both of my parents.

It was a toxic marriage and they both behaved appallingly. I was an only child and I suffered because children are not stupid.

They know that broken ribs do not "just happen" and black eyes are not "just something silly - you don't need to worry". The police do not go to other people's houses. I know what divorce is cos I looked it up and I don't know why you two don't do it.

Individually and on their own, my parents were great and both loved me and did so much for me, but they were blinded by their hatred of each other.

I know these seem like overly strong words, but I really believe that for a child to live like this it is nothing short of a form of child abuse.

Yes, I am outspoken about it.

Yes, I am emotional about it.

But it was my childhood and it shouldn't have been that way.

I wouldn't have cared which one moved out so long as it stopped.

Eventually my Dad left when my Mum got a solicitor when I was 12. It was the happiest day of my short, little life.

I don't look for sympathy or a pat on the head. But if my words can prevent another child cowering under their bed because their Mum is chasing their Dad with a knife, then I will keep talking until the cows come home.

No daddy is better if the Dad is a nasty piece of work.

XP would be abusive to all of us (he's angry at the whole sodding world ), so I stopped contact.

I set up mediation (he got thrown out) and a contact centre (he refused to attend). We are better off without him, which is sad but I can't change it.

Wow Oopsadaisy.

Congratulations for coming out the other side of that and becoming the strong, self aware individual you undoubtedly are.

maledetta - sorry I meant to add (but forgot because I got a bit carried away!):

I lived with my Mum afterwards and saw my Dad quite regularly.

On their own they were great parents who encouraged me and loved me. The problem was when they were together.

When I was expecting my first dc I told them both that if they did not behave themselves they would both miss out of having grandchildren (I am their only child). I told them quite firmly that I would cut all ties. It was extremely empowering and I had a bit of a cry afterwards because I wish I had been able to have that power as a child.

They have been wonderful grandparents and even talk civilly when we have family events for the dcs. My children have never witnessed anything of what I saw.

No child should endure a toxic atmosphere whether it is violent or mentally stressful or whatever.

I am strong and I try to be self-aware, but I cannot bear the idea of a child picking up on toxic adult behaviour because I know how it feels.

My DCs father is a fool and always will be. The day he left (thrown out) I said to him "promise me one thing, that you'll never have any more children" he never answered...forward 2 years DC number 6 was born (so 3 from previous marriage,then my 2) so a dear little girl totally innocent has been thrown into the lions den, and guess what....he's no different with her and the girlfriend...yet another child who's emotions will be f*ed with.

Luckily my kids had me, totally sane (well, sometimes)levelheaded and consistent. God knows where they would be if I was of the same ilk as he. That said, he does see our 13 yo son but our 20 yo daughter has no time for him whatsoever...there is no forgiveness there I'm afraid..

Oopsadaisy.. your story is heartbreaking...but you are inspiring ((hugs))

bristol the whole point of a contact centre is that you dont have to see or speak to ex - the handovers can be done by the staff.

you arrive with your DS. you go into a waiting room.
your ex arrives and is shown into the play room.
staff member comes and takes your DS cheerfully saying "lets go play with daddy".
you then disappear or stay whatever.

same in reverse when session is over.

and staff will not allow him in if he has a can of booze in his hand. they will tell him off - not you. so you get the control back - via someone else.

(Disclaimer: I have no real-life experience of this issue)

I did my degree in Psychology, with a special interest in developmental psychology. As part of my course I did a lit survey (summary of results of 20-30 published papers) about attachment in infancy and its effect on behavioural and socio-emotional outcomes in later childhood. One of the conclusions that was common to many papers was that inconsistent attachment produced the worst outcome for the child. A child with a consistently indifferent parent actually fared better than one whose parent switched between indifference and interest. Based on that I would say that if the contact wouldn't be stable and regular then it may be better to have no contact at all.

My only worry is he hasn't seen his dad for 2 months now (ex's decision) and im just worried that turning up somewhere he doesn't know and see someone he barely knows in an alien environment could all be a bit traumatic???

Hi. i'm the friend Maledetta mentioned at the beginning, i'm new to mumsnet. It is really tricky this one I really want to do whats best for my ds[age nearly 4]. I went through the pregnancy alone, he wanting nothing to do with me, then when dc was born he wanted regular access which was a few times every 6 weeks or so, he has always been extremely difficult to deal with volatile, abusive and threatening, he is also is a very convinceing liar, he has told all our old friends I wont allow access, which has never been the case, I think he does this to justify not visiting for months at a time, he consistantly arranges to visit then doesn't turn up. I worry about his mental health and he has at least a bad drink problem.
He came after 10months this weekend with a friend of his, another bloke with attitude which was really intimidating,[tho at least he would take the car seat and change of clothes bag] I counterd this by having a big male friend around at drop off time which radically improved his behaviour. I often feel like running away abroad so I dont have to deal with this, its very hard when I want to be reasonable, and I want my ds to know who his father is. It has shocked me how someone can be so difficult. Contact centre may be a good one I will check that out. Bristol I symphasise. I know also if I suggest something like a contact centre i'm in for loads more abuse. I used to consider myself assertive and resiliant but being a mum in this position puts you in a very vunerable place. Is there anywhere else to get advice on these matters. he has said he will come back in 6 weeks or so, but in all reality it could be months, i never know, I do know that my ds loves him, but is also bothered and saddened by his absence, I was suprised he still rememered him, tho he was confused, he was so happy and excited to see him he said to me I knew my daddy would come eventually, poor lad.