Access arrangements and outside interests

[readywithwellies]

Hi everyone
I have name changed altho am a regular, I have been separated for 2 years, have two DCs aged 3 and 6. Have recently moved in with new DP, about 15 miles from EXH.
Currently my EXh has the DCs overnight on Thursdays, picks up from school on Fridays and has them until 6pm (no later, that may spoil his social life). Then on Sunday am till Monday at 7pm.
This arrangement had been working OK up until DC 6 has started his new school. ExH and I agreed access as above but it is not (IMO) in the DCs best interests as there is much toing and froing. I would prefer he had them every other weekend Fri-Sun with the following week being Sun 10-7. This means I would arrange the school and meals (he feeds him the same tinned food every meal) We both work FT. I would then let him have them more in the holidays as well to make up the lost overnights. I know ExH is not going to agree, he wants to see them every few days and a week is too long to go.
I would really appreciate everyone's views, I have an appointment with the solicitor on Friday to sort it out.

The other reason I want to change the arrangements is that it is preventing DCs from doing after school activities as I only have two week nights to be able to do this. DS has already missed out on one activity.

How long has the current contact pattern been running over? Since you split?

My concern is that you have both established a status quo. If your ex doesn't agree then its might be tough to get a court to overrule it.

I understand your point about after school activities but if it gets to court, he will argue that its more important DC's spend time with their father than an afterschool activity. Again, kind of hard to argue against. Plus assuming your kids are doing well at school then he will also argue why change a working routine.

Whilst the alternate weekend makes perfect sense to me, the bottom line is that if your ex does not then i fear no court will order him to have the kids when he doesn't want them.

Hi

I understand your concerns but your new plan means that you will only have 2 days at the weekend with them per month - if you both work full time then you will be missing out on a lot of nice time with dc's - although I understand why you are suggesting it.

I would love my ex to agree to everyother weekend as well - I think it is best for everyone but he likes to lick and choose various bits of weekends that suit him (rarely overnights!) and won't see them during the week as he has a job

What are his reasons for not agreeing to every other weekend? He could then still have thursday night if that suited him and ds?

Thanks for your replies, he won't have them every other weekend because it doesn't suit his lifestyle (bit like your ex Tiddly) and he wants to see them regularly. Niceguy2, the status quo has changed as DD is starting nursery and DS has started a new school. Wouldn't this mean it is reasonable to make changes?

I think that access arrangements will naturally change as children get older, particularly when they start school.
For younger children short frequent visits are more important, but your dc1 is at school now and it is probably time for review.

Your ex will need to understand that he should share school responsibilities with you. There is, for example, no reason your dc1 can't go to the after school activity. However if it is on your ex's evening he will need to know this and make appropriate arrangements. Same thing if he joins beavers and it's your ex's night. He would need to drop him off/collect etc. However you can not force your ex to allow your dc1 to attend such things, he may choose to have him at home with him instead, and that is a choice he can make.

As you are both working, and dc1 is now at school, it seems reasonabke to suggest you have alternate weekends (friday to monday). So he will be having the friday overnight rather than the thursday.
It's only fair that you should get time t the weekend to yourself as he does, and the children aren't being ferried around constantly.

It also seems sensible to agree holiday arrangements now, as you are both working you will need to arrange alternative childcare on those dates you are working and have dc with you. Plus there are inset days to cover.

It is usual to have an agreement of alterate weekends (friday school pick up to monday school drop off) and half the holidays including inset days

This calculates as
39 sch weeks x 3 overnights = 117
13 hol weeks x 50% = 45.5
5 sch inset days x 50% = 3.5

This comes to 166 overnights per year which means he spends 45% of the overnights with the dc.

It does also mean that you will get a reduction of 3/7ths on any child maintenance he pays. Howeevr he will need to cover his half of the school holidays, either taking time off, roping in relatives, or paying for childcare.

You can of course adjust this as you like. ie you could continue the arrangement where the dc go to him on monday after school until 6pm.

btw you should discuss now how you intend to split the school holidays (eg alternate half terms or split them in half. Split summer holidya in two or alternate one/two week, or even ten days in a row)

Also inset days. Will you simply cover if these fall on your weekend (usually they tend to be a monday or friday - but not always), or will you alternate. And if so what will you do if there are two in a row?

It really is best to sort this out now. Are you going to put your suggestions in a letter from your sol, or suggest family mediation to discuss?

And yes a court will look at the current situation, but as your ex won't be losing time, and will in fact be gaining significant and quality time, I don't think you'd have too much trouble swappping. Unless he really isn't iterested in having the extra time with them.

he's also going to be paying less maintenance 3/7th reduction rather than 2/7ths. Course he'll have to take responsibilty for child care and arrange his holidays with work accordingly.

Have you thought about what you'll be doing for Christmas and birthdays now?

Thanks Gillybean. All good things to think about. I am really concerned that if I go to mediation that he will manipulate me (has done before, very clever, I don't even realise it until afterwards) and I will be in a worse position. Does anyone know what happens in mediation?

You can speak to the mediator before hand and say you are concerned about this.

A good mediator will understand and know that this can/does happen.
You can also ask for a break at any time to take a breather from things should you need it.

Mediation doesn't work for everyone, but if you end up going to court they will want to see that you have tried mediation first and insist you go if you haven't already.

An offer of mediation rather than simply a letter setting out your terms will make it look like you are willing to discuss rather than just dictating to your ex. But if your ex isn't willing to have the extra time the court can't force it. However they will probably look at your request to swap the day and make it alternate weekends each more favourably, but bear in mind you must show it is better for your dc to do this.
And I think you can easily show that more consistant, quality time with each of you, with regaular time off for you both (as you work full time too), rathe rthan all this ferrying around would be better.

Thanks again Gillybean. So many things whirring around in my brain.

Thanks for your replies, he won't have them every other weekend because it doesn't suit his lifestyle (bit like your ex Tiddly) and he wants to see them regularly. Niceguy2, the status quo has changed as DD is starting nursery and DS has started a new school. Wouldn't this mean it is reasonable to make changes?

Hi Just to say what you are proposing is what CAFCASS would suggest if it got that far as the minimum contact, as he has been seeing them a lot more than that then im not sure how that would work. We have my DSD(4) 3 weekends out of every 4 sat-sun and additional time in the holidays until she is a bit older and she can have input into it.

Niceguy, sound him out? I would be railroaded. He wouldn't agree to taking ds to an after school club as it was 'inconvenient'. The routine may work for him, but not me and IMO, not the Dcs.

That is why I have decided to get a solictor involved and see which way to go. Mediation scares the hell out of me as I know he will try to manipulate me.

He spends Friday nights with his GF as her DCs aren't around, so thats why I think he won't change. He is arrogant, egotistical and selfish. He does love DCs but he loves himself more.

Thanks upsydaisy, that is reassuring, I do want DCs to have a relationship with their dad.

Not a problem, Im pleased I could help

I think although he's had alot of contact, contact is expected to change once they reach school anyway and i can be put that it is reviewed in say 3 years time etc.

Their dad will have to realise that if he doesnt want to take them to after school stuff then he will see them less. Wish my DP got a chance to do what your offering him...

Whilst contact arrangements may change in line with age, I'm not sure how that fits here - youngest child is only 3, after all. So Dad's reason for the current arrangement is pretty valid, particularly as it has been in place for quite some time. And many would say that close involvement in the day to day aspects of a child's life - picking up from school, doing homework, talking about the day - are a vital part of a close parenting relationship.

What is the issue with to-ing and fro-ing? Does he have to pick the two children up from different places now the eldest is in a new school? To be fair, you can only have been trying the arrangement with DC at the new school for a few weeks, not really enough time to see if it will settle down.

I'm not sure the meals issue works for me, either - surely he'll still be feeding them at the weekend? (And how do you know what they are eating at Dad's? )

What are you hoping to achieve with a solicitor?

Tanga, Dc aged 3 is starting nursery. Another reason to change now. To-ing and fro-ing is an issue EXh always brings up since we moved but from school to dads and back is an hour so they are spending 1 hour out of three on the road on a Mon and Fri evening.
DS says proudly what dad feeds him, and yes I agree I can't do anythig about that really.
Hoping to achieve some sense from solicitor, find out what is worth fighting and what isn't

I think I'm having a dozy evening. DS has started a new school and Dc is starting nursery, is that right? I thought the to-ing and fro-ing was your objection, not the ex's?

Look, lots of kids have a half-hour journey home from school and how come it's only an issue now, after you moved? What a shame you couldn't find a school/nursery that was in between the two homes.

I don't know what a solicitor will tell you (although there are some out there who will tell you exactly what you want to hear) but it seems a little unfair to move someone's children further away and then use that distance as an argument to stop him seeing his kids as often.

I agree with Tanga

The distance is not an issue as far as a court would be concerned.

And beware of solicitors. They are not miracle workers yet some promise you the earth. Just last week my friend was told her court order meant x so she made a decision based on this. Her ex went mad and then her solicitor said "...actually you could interpret it as y"

I am not saying your desire to change the contact routine isn't valid, i think it is. But hopefully from the replies you can see the path ahead may not be smooth.

Just depends how much he values his weekends.

You seem to want it on your terms. You chose to move further away from Ex-H to be with your new partner. So what if they spend an hour in the car? It gives them the chance to chat to dad or wind down.

You say Ex-H only wants DC until 6pm on Friday so he can spend time with his girlfriend? Sounds fair enough to me that he gets to have a relationship seeing as you have a new one too.

Many kids don't get to do after school activities because their parents work full-time so the kids are at childminders rather than beavers or ballet.

So many LPs lament their DC's fathers having little or no contact with their kids but you have a man who wants to be involved with his kids' lives. Good for him.

Noel, yes I want it on my terms. So does he, so who should get priority when you can't agree? I don't get any childfree time as we have DPs daughter full time so this isn't the issue.
He left me for the GF, whom he was seeing for six months prior to telling me so excuse me for thinking his GF is not important.
Just because 'most' kids don't do after school activities doesn't mean mine shouldn't when I have the flexibility with my job (which I changed after having kids) and childcare to arrange this.

Niceguy, I realise what you are saying. All I can say is that I can't feel any worse for not trying!

So does he, so who should get priority when you can't agree?

So does he, so who should get priority when you can't agree?

Tanga - its ok, DS has now been brainwashed by ex into thinking that the afterschool activity he was 'please, please, please!' about last week into 'boring' now. Which is exactly my point. Ex thinks of himself, not DCs and now ds will miss out on a social and educational activity which would have helped him make friends in a new area and that was not available on any other day.

My reasons, let me make it crystal. I don't want court, cafcass or anything like that. I just want to be able to allow my kids to go to activities they want to do and not have their father dictate to them! I believe as the resident parent, I should be able to allow this. The only way I can see is to change their access arrangements. I am going to see a solicitor so that I know where I stand, so I can advocate for my DCs, not to start a war with their father.

And yes, I am bitter. My situation is not what I signed up for. I am furious with him and his mid life crisis. However, I have never hindered his relationship with the DCS and I agree they come first. Always have and always will.

Hi everyone
Just an update for anyone who was following this thread and was in the same kinda situation.
Saw solicitor, twas free for first appointment even though I don't qualify for legal aid.
Basically I can't change access without his permission (knew that) and basically if I went to court he could end up with another overnight if he pushed it.
So, asked about the social activities and she said that it would probably go in my favour providing I still let Ex see dcs for same time spans, so maybe an hour later or so. So, next time my dcs want to do something, I know I have this up my sleeve if I should need it.
So, thanks for all your support on this. To all those of you frightened to go to a solicitor, pluck up the courage and get yourself armed with information. What you do with it is up to you.

TBH you can change the arrangements as you have no court order. If you can agree between you then fine. But if you can't and he isn't happy with whathe gets instead then he can take it to court.
Ideally you'd be able to sort it out amically between you putting the dc best interests first. But as you said before that doesn't appear to be his priority, unless it fits in with him.

Can you not broach it with him and say, clearly there needs to be some flexibility when dc1 has after school events, gets invited to a friend's for tea etc.

You could also say that now they are starting school/nursery you want to discuss the arrangements and work out something more suitable for you all.
And it all depends how hard you are prepared to push it. But basically you will either get him agreeing to all and any contact, or you will get him putting his foot down and possibly stopping all contact, or somethign in the middle.

It's always better if you can agree. But at the end of the day, as the parent with care, you can pretty much dictate what happens, and if he doesn't like it then he can take you to court. So if you were to say 'no dc1 is going to this instead that night and isn't available', he may not like it, but other than take you to court or become really difficult himself over contact leavving you with no free time, then what else is he going to be able to do?

I'm not saying you should go ahead and do just what you like btw, that will lead to all kinds of issues and problems for you both and the dc are stuck in the middle and suffer as a result. But if he won't budge and won't discuss, either at mediation or between you, then you do have the option of forcing his hand at court.

At the end of the day it's almost impossible to force the NRP to have more contact than they want though. But if it's court ordered (including the overnights you want him to have) contact or no contact at all, what option do you think he'd pick? And are you ready for the court ordering way more contact than you're happy with and having a completely inflexible agreement...?

Gilly, not going to do anything at the mo. The current arrangement works OK, it isn't ideal but no arrangement is.
I have asked him to change when I moved and he would to some extent - an hour here or there - but no where near what I would propose so I will stick with it. At least this arrangement means I see my dcs everyday, even if it just for an hour or so.