DCs struggling with dad, what can I do

[secretskillrelationships]

this is an issue which I am struggling to put into words, but here goes.

DCs are struggling with moving from mine to their dad's house which has been exacerbated over the holidays as there hasn't been the buffer of school.

I don't really know what to do, or even if there is anything I can do.

The single biggest issue is that he is really not available to the DCs while they are with him. He is permanently slightly distracted. He will disappear for hours at a time (usually to his room). He is often on the phone (talking or texting) or has friends round and sends the DCs off to play. He doesn't really seem to have any idea what to do with them.

This may all sound trivial but it's like trying to have a conversation with a man when he's doing something else at the same time. And it's having a profound effect on all 3 DCs. My youngest (6) had a nightmare where they had all gone somewhere together but he couldn't find his dad. The place emptied and he was no-where to be seen. The older two (13 & 10) relate to this dream in a 'well, yeah that's what happens' type way. Obviously not literally, but emotionally this is how they feel he acts.

I ignored what was happening initially, but then had a gentle word as I was worried about DCs. But nothing is changing and DCs are getting more and more distressed and angry with the situation. Last time I spoke to him he reassured me that things were much better. But they clearly aren't. It's getting worse and I have now had DD (10) in tears the last 2 nights about it. She's tried to talk to him but he fobs her off and she feels like she doesn't count.

I don't really know how to support her or what to do to help the situation. It is this type of behaviour which led to us separating in the first place and I hate to see him doing it to our lovely DCs who deserve much much better.

In addition, I find it emotionally exhausting to be the sole source of emotional support for my DCs during this challenging time. Over the summer I have noticed that it has taken roughly 2 days for the DCs to 'recover' from spending 3 days with their dad during which I need to have the patience of a saint.

My DCs just want to feel that they matter to their dad, they want to feel he is involved with them. They want to know that he loves them and will do anything for them. They feel angry with him and feel bad for feeling angry because he's their dad and they love him.

This is very difficult. is there any way the 13 and 10 year old would consider sitting Dad down over a meal (when surely he must stop what he's doing and give attention to the food) and saying they really do feel they'd like him to spend a bit more time with them as they'll all be grown up soon and the moments for having fun with him will have passed. If they said it would mean the world to them, maybe it would wake him up. Sounds like he has the kind of mind that locks onto what he's doing and is unaware of everyone else. Don't know of course if their dad has a sense of humour but they could say something to the effect of, one day Dad when you are old and limping around on a zimmer or whatever, we won't abandon you in an OP's Home if you don't abandon us now.

You'd have to put it to the 13&10 that although his absences may not worry them too much, the little 6 yr old is getting very unhappy about it and it would be a really kind thing to do, and Dad might take some notice if it came from them, whereas you've tried and it doesn't seem to get through to him. Obviously if they don't like the idea, then its down to the 6 yr old to do it, and if he doesn't want to either, then that won't work anyway.

You could suggest to their Dad that he gets (or that you find and install, with his agreement - even better cos you get to choose her) a 'mother's help' to come and look after them, like a trainee nanny, for some periods of day times when they are at his place; that might show him how serious this is, and he presumably wouldn't want the expense of doing that, so he put his attention onto playing with them. But if he did want to delegate, or feel that he needs help, she could play with them, especially the little one, and when Dad saw the fun and laughter that was going on, he might come out of his isolation and decide he wanted to play a part in it.

Trouble is, the more angry the DCs feel with him, the more he'll feel it and feel guilty and then the thing gets worse and worse. Is he a very clever person, like, he's got the kind of clever but unusual brain that is good at what he works at but no good at interacting on a personal level with people? Or is he depressed and just can't cope with kids at times?

persimum's ideas are nice but it would mean you managing your ex's life which you surely dont want to do...

my exP is similar int hat he promises the dds stuff "we goign tog o to xxx and do xxx" and tehy never make it out th door 2he is always tecting or phonining or on cmputer".

but they accept that is how he is...

when i was a kid parents elft me and siblings alone for hours on end...to entertain ourselves...

sure it is maddening - but you cant manage your ex -

dcs have to understand that is his style of parenting.

they can try talking to him - but i doubt he will change unless he has some kind of revelation.

maybe encourage them instead to take their own entertainment there nintendos or whatever - does he have outside space they can play out?

if oyu provide a minder/nanny he will just sit back even more!

response to the nitemare - well dad wasnt there but you knwo you can always find me,
have him learn your phone number for example so he can call you.

have them write a letter to him or do drawings to express themselves?

but again, doubt it will impact at all...

so short answer - no you cant do anything other than yes be very patient ...
you could sugggest he attends family mediaiton with family therapist with the dcs but i bet he would laugh it off as your paranoia - after all he knows best doesnt he?

as dc get older you can let them decide level of contact - make it clear to him dd wants to go eg only one night at a time for example...

Thanks both of you for your replies. Persimum I like the idea of involving humour. DD has tried talking to her dad but he fobbed her off really and she's not prepared to risk trying again as that made her feel even worse.

He's brilliant at talking to people, no-one would believe that he's behaving like this with his kids, everyone thinks he's great so unfortunately, can't excuse it that way.

And Cestlavie, I also agree that I don't want to have to micromanage the situation. And I had the same thoughts about helping DS even down to teaching him the phone number!

My issue is that I feel very angry with him and, having talked to him and nothing changes, I feel angry and resentful and angry for the DCs.

That said, I did manage to talk to him today. I'm not convinced it did any good but I did manage to stay calm and detatched. He admits that he is finding everything very difficult and he is very sad about what has happened. He also feels resentful towards the DCs which is what is making it difficult for him to be with them. He feels awful about this and has only just acknowledged that for the first time today. He understands that I am resentful and exhausted as I am effectively parenting for both of us and probably always have.

Sounds good, positive and as if he's really heard me doesn't it? Unfortunately, this is exactly how he has been behaving for a very long time. He's good, really good and convinced our Relate therapist for over a year! He's been in individual therapy for over 18 months and AFAIK it's made absolutely no difference whatsoever.

What I think is happening is this: he has been profoundly unhappy for some time and has looked for external reasons for this. He was unhappy at work and we were having problems, so initially it didn't seem particularly unreasonable. But, while we talked things over endlessly, he did nothing to change things in his life. Things came increasingly to a head and he left work nearly 2 years ago. This did not seem to make him any happier. Things continued to deteriorate but now he only had me to blame. He left me over a year ago.

He is currently not working, having a great and busy social life but struggling to engage with the DCs or be happy in their company. So, given past behaviour, I think he's blaming them. Of course, they are angry and difficult which just re-enforces his sense that life would be great if only .....

He reckons that everything will be just great in the next 2-3 months for reasons that he is not prepared to discuss with me but I have warned him he needs to sort this now.

So, what do I do to protect the DCs? How do I explain what is going on without hurting them further? How do I protect myself?

In one phrase, you are not responsible for their father decisions.

You can only support your children to help them cope with his dad's behaviour, but there's absolutely nothing you can do to make him change. You have given him the reasons, but he will change when he decides to do it.

Stop counting on him, then every little gesture is a bonus. But if the children are getting distressed, his dad is not paying attention, perhaps they would like to spend more time with you?

Thanks Orangerie. You're right. I know I'm not responsible for his decisions or behaviour and I'm not counting on him at all. In fact, his behaviour since the split has been bizare. I barely recognise him and that is both challenging and helpful at the same time. Frustrating in that I don't know what is going on, helpful in that I have absolutely no doubt that I am better off on my own!

The DCs are miserable but they also want a relationship with their dad. I remember this from my own childhood. Really boring Sundays spent with my dad who made little to no effort for us. He was unreliable and wouldn't always turn up or would turn up late. BUT it was all we had of him so we clung on for grim death. My dad stopped taking us out on Sunday when I hit about 14 as 'we were too old and would want to spend the time with our friends'. My sister was 10 at the time!

I do not want this for my DCs but also I do not want the extra work that his treatment of the DCs gives me. For 2 days after they come back from their dad's they are really stressed, pick on each other, pick on me, try to start fights. Nothing that looks too bad from the outside but it really wears me down.

It means that I have now stopped doing much on those 2 days as anything that requires any extra effort from me pushes me over the edge. This means I'll not have friends over, go somewhere I don't know, do anything for myself that would require the DCs to fit in with me, do anything that one or other DC doesn't really like etc etc. That is a huge limitation to our/my life.

I have also taken this week off work just to ensure that the DCs are with me and therefore on an even keel prior to going back to school.

It's all very well not relying on an ex to do anything (after all he did very little when he was here) but he is actively making my life very much harder than it needs to be.

Well... IME and in my humble opinion... things are easier for DS and I since we lowered our expectations of him.

Yes, I would love him to be a loving father, one that treasured the time he spent with his child, but no matter what I do, what I said, what DS wants or says to him, the only person who can change things is himself.

Just remember, you can take the horse to the water but you can't force him to drink... and also that the horse can kick both you and your children hard if you insist in making him do something he doesn't want to.

Don't really have anything helpful to add, I'm afraid, but I just wanted to say you sound like a brilliant mum.
x

Thanks both of you. I think the thing that is hardest is recognising this about him. He's always made out that he's really committed to both me and the DCs so I guess when I finally realised that he wasn't committed to me it didn't occur to me that he felt the same way about the DCs.

BUT, he's not saying any of this. This is what I've worked out through watching the difference between what he says and what he does. If the DCs or I challenge him on his behaviour he denies it, fobs us off etc etc which makes it very difficult to give them strategies to cope. If he was being overtly hostile or unpleasant or even rude, then my DCs have enough self esteem to tell him that they don't like his behaviour. But it is all unspoken.

How do you give DCs strategies to cope with people like this? In any other circumstances my DCs would have nothing to do with someone who behaved like this, especially my DD who reacts particularly badly to people who are not straight with her. But he is their dad and they love him. And feeling angry with him makes them feel bad about themselves as 'I shouldn't feel like that about my dad'.

I can talk to them about how people treat each other and how some of those ways are not very kind or even grown up but I don't know how to tackle this one. I realise that it mirrors my own childhood which means I'm probably over identifying but I still don't know how to support them.

This week they have been out for the day with their dad once and they have been so much better. I don't want to reduce the amount of time they spend with him but am now left wondering whether I should be considering this.

How do you teach them strategies to cope? I got the following from Parent Line and The Centre for Separated Families.

First, you and their dad are the people they rely on for care and protection so no matter what he does, try not to add to the sad feelings of your children by adding more blame to his actions: Lets say they come to you saying they have been ignored all the weekend, don't say anything on the likes of "why on Earth is he behaving like that???" just ask your children "how do you feel about it?", "is there anything that can be done to make the situation better?

Obviously this doesn't solve being ignored by the other parent but it allows them to talk about their feelings freely which is part of the process to heal their feelings.

If he doesn't show up, doesn't keep to his promises or keep letting them down, don't make excuses for that behaviour or tell white lies, they will come back to haunt you, so if he doesn't show up don't say "He had something important to do so he can not come", just say the truth but nicely "I don't know why he is not here, but should we make something interesting today?" and distract them from the situation. LEt them talk but help them forget about it. With time they won't fail to realise that they are ok, loved and well cared for even if one of the parents just plays a minor role.

Thanks. I do quite a lot of that already but I am also aware that they don't want to complain/criticise their dad so they tend to say nothing but act it out. I will ask but I do have to be careful.

I do try to be honest, as far as I can and as far as I feel it is in their best interests. I made the decision to talk about the separation as a joint decision because I felt it was important that the DCs didn't feel that one of us was the 'bad' person. It was compounded by the fact that I couldn't get clear in my head why he was leaving. Even so, they feel abandoned by their dad as he was the one to leave (though maybe this has more to do with his behaviour since). But, given his behaviour and apparent lack of committment to the DCs I'm beginning to wonder if that was the right decision. Would it actually have been kinder in the long term to have been more brutal?

No, I don't think it should have helped been more brutal, quite the opposite. We ended up in very amicable terms, which helped DS to do the transition between 1 to 2 homes. However, over the last year or so, DS's dad beme increasingly abusive towards DS, first it was ignoring him all day, then leaving him with other people during contact times, then going into details of our problems in a way no child should be involved.

All the time I argued how important it was for DS to have contact with his dad, always offered for him to see DS as often as he wanted. But while I was offering all this, my son was actually not only being ignored, but neglected and emotionally abused, he was literally begging for protection and I ignored his pleas. The last thing my ex did was so bad my DS was a mess for weeks.

After this I realised that kind of contact was not in the best interests of DS, actually everyone comments that DS seems more happy, relaxed and settled since his father decided to cease contact completely. I thought DS would be heartbroken about this but, after the last thing he did to him, he doesn't even want to know about him, and in a way I don't blame him. However I do blame myself, because in insisting both DS and ex to continue having contact, I failed to realise that my son was being badly hurt at his dad, and that it took me ages to start protecting him from that.

I'm not saying that your case is similar, but keep your eyes open, listen to your children and don't let your childhood experiences blind any of your decisions. Remember, put the children interests first, even if they are in detriment of either or both of the parents.

Sorry, brutal was the wrong word. I guess what I'm worried about is exactly the situation you have found yourself in. That by being reasonable and putting the DCs first, I have unwittingly encouraged them to think better of him than they should, if that makes sense. Whether it might have actually been kinder in some ways to tell them that their dad didn't want to be with me. They might then see his behaviour in terms of him rejecting all of us rather than rejecting them, that is, it would feel less personal.

i think it might be worthwhile to book a session with a family therapist - initially you on your own to go thru all this and come up with strategies.

having an outsider look at it can help.

working out how much you should be making it up to them and how much you should jsut carry on with your life.

making sure you dont feel angry/bitter etc towards him - because it only eats you up and wont change him.

talking thru what your experiecne was with your dad versus theirs etc.

There is a very good book to help with these matters, it is called Putting Children First by Karen Woodall. You can get it from Amazon.

We did a session with a family therapist but none of us found it particularly helpful. H managed to manipulate the space so I didn't feel great about it and some of the stuff she got the DCs to suggest left me even more backed into a corner.

Orangerie, while I will look out for that book, my issue is that I am putting DCs first to the point of exhaustion but H is putting H first. Nothing I say or do is going to change that. But I don't know how to support DCs while acknowledging my own needs which have been buried for far too long while trying to keep the relationship together and now trying to maintain their relationship with their dad.

If he was obviously selfish etc, DCs would recognise it and feel it less personally. The fact is that everything is so subtle and unspoken it's almost impossible to challenge.
Let's face it, it took me 14 years to work out that he didn't actually want to be with me - if anything I probably over think stuff and I still didn't see it. I just hate the thought that the DCs are going through the same and there appears to be nothing I can do to help other than be here to pick up the pieces (repeatedly).

you need a therapist/counsellor for you, definitely not with ex . or try one of the divorce workshops eg www.drw.org.uk/

Have tried that too and the counsellor just kept saying that my H wasn't there to defend himself Unfortunately, that hasn't been my only poor experience.

Now I don't have the money or time for therapy so at least that's one less thing to worry about

Feeling lots better today, it's really helped being able to type it out. I now feel much clearer about what is going on and what I am prepared to put up with. I am being much more assertive with ex and lots of people have also offered to help out with school runs which were causing me real grief (3 different pick-up times every day).

The real problem is that nothing is in isolation. Issues with ex are compounded by the fact that he's not working and money is extremely tight. I've managed to get myself a job which I am really proud about but it's a drop in the ocean money-wise and doesn't leave much time so I do feel I am constantly on the go. The ages of the DCs mean that I get little or no 'me' time in the evening, I'm trying to move which has not proved to be very easy etc etc. Most of the time I manage to keep all the plates spinning but a combination of extra stresses brings the whole lot crashing down.

What about sending the book to your ex? It certainly helped mine, at the beginning. Guess if I need to send him another copy.... I borrowed his a few months ago...

It is not only about "putting children first", it also helps you to make decissions on how to do it. It has some very good practical advice.