Applying to Scottish primary school for overseas child

[Mumsfan]

l am Scottish, my child was born in HongKong, l have asked a couple of rated public primary schools about applying for August2020 year. The primary school in our catchment area house, told me that it would make no difference applying now as they won't even look at the applications till June2020. The other school, which is just outside the catchment area, said that they will deal with applications on a first come first basis.

1. who is right? both?
2. our catchment house is rented out for a few more months, so the council tax is not under my name. l currently stay with relatives on the outskirts. my relatives pay council tax under their name, l just contribute to all bills. question is, couldn't l just apply to several non catchment primary schools, even in different cities and not require the council tax demand notice / assessment? as it says on the application form for school places 'If requesting a place in your catchment school, please enclose copies of your most recent Council Tax demand notice and a current utility bill as proof of your address.'
3. are you aware of any requirement for minimum length of residence in catchment area school?

thanks in advance for help :)

forgot to add, wouldn't l have to show child is a British national, even though born in HKG? Her school friend, who is a HKG national would like to study at a public school as well. is that legally possible?

What area is it? In Edinburgh applications opened in November and will close in February for August 2020. Any application after this date cannot be guaranteed to be given your catchment school- only if there were spaces there.

For some reason, I can't reply to the DM you sent me:

Here it is instead

I lose track of the years, so I've gone back and calculated (with reference to P6s I know): current P6s are the same age as your dd (I know some with birthdays in August, so only a few days difference in age to your dd). So she would definitely be going into P7 next year.

She wouldn't even have had the option of deferring if she's started school here as she would have been 5 when school started (mid/late August) so was legally obliged to start school - and anyway, that would've been highly unusual (in practice it is just the January and February birthdays - in your dd's example, it would be Jan/Feb 2010 birthdays - with just a few November and December 2009 birthdays and even rarer usually from abroad October.)

Don't call them public schools - that confuses people here (it used to confuse even me and I was brought up in Scotland ) - as "public school" = private school - also called independent schools. You mean state school.

In terms of showing whether or not she is a British national, no you don't need to. Any child resident in Scotland (and England for the moment for that matter) has a right to a state education. There might be an issue with children sent on their own from overseas purely for the purpose of education - but I think that that is more to do with further education fees.

In terms of providing evidence of living in catchment, you may indeed need to wait until June. Although I am vaguely aware that providing evidence that you have bought a house (the concluded missives) is acceptable (at least in some areas), so if you can provide evidence that you own the house - and perhaps the notice of termination to your tenants - that might help. By the same token, there is no minimum residence period - just that you are living there when you make the application.

I'm confused by your sentence l currently stay with relatives who pay council tax under their name, l just contribute to all bills. - are you in scotland now or are you still in HK? Not everyone pays council tax or will have it in their name, so there must be other ways of providing evidence.

If you move into catchment after applications have to be in for P1 entry, then the council is obliged to put you into the catchment school if there is space or a place in the nearest school at which there is space (and provide transport if it is beyond a certain distance). It might not be a school you like though. If that is the case and then a place later becomes available at the catchment school, then I think you have a right to get it (unless there is someone with a higher priority - eg disabled or "cared for").

If you are happy with the secondary school that your house is in the catchment for (or rather the catchment primary feeds), then whether or not your dd gets into that primary, she will be ok for the secondary school.

Hope that helps.

thanks so much prettybird, so insightful and helpful, you must have gone through this before. Sorry about calling them public schools! Thats what we use to call it in 70s and 80s, it got me confused when people would be saying public schools are so expensive. I will try my best to call them state schools!
So are you telling me a HKG child, could come to Scotland and have free state school education?(HongKongers can stay in UK for only 6months, and I know it is only for tourist reasons, ie not allowed to work, but free education? I doubt it, but of course I could be wrong)

yes, we do have the missives, and can show the tenancy agreement that show tenants' residency ends on June20. But supplying a council tax demand notice or assessment letter could be done. Ed council said that I wouldnt have to issue a notice to quit to the residents staying there just now, and would just need to go to www.edinburgh.gov.uk/council-tax/moving-house/1 but not sure they can email me a copy, as I currently in Manchester with relatives.

Thanks for reassuring me my daughter will be ok for the catchment secondary school. Its james gillespies and is v popular so am worried it be too full. When would we be informed she got a place or not as l thought of making multiple applications for non catchment S1 places from this August20 including Boroughmuir High, it seems to accept applications before the December deadline boroughmuirhighschool.org/admissions/
To start education here, she needs to get into a primary school, so applications to non catchments schools including catchment school can be made with www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/22328/request-for-school-place-form right, and apply now? Or perhaps best thing is to ask the primary school places now if they have a place? But do want her to finish her last year in HKG where she has lots of friends and does really well academically. Its a shame state schools dont consider the childs academic performance or other merits, for eg she has been chosen from P1-P5 to represent the school in interschool poem reading competitions in front of an audience, where she always performed outstandingly. when l was at that age, or even now I'd be too nervous! youtube link can be given if anyone interested! thanks again for help

Our state schools are not selective so your dd's abilities do not count for or against her, and nor should they! (I understand the proud mummy thing, but that isn't how it's done here)
I'm a bit confused about what age she is, if there is a chance to be attending a catchment primary that feeds into Gillespie's that would certainly be the easiest route. We were able to demonstrate we lived in catchment with the official email confirming purchase of our house, even though we hadn't moved in yet.

Hi LoopyGremlin, area is Tollcross, my first choice is for her to finish her P5 in HKG (~P6 equivalent to UK).
l think l learned that it doesn't matter which primary school she goes to in Edinburgh, as she will be guaranteed one primary (correct?), we of course ideally want Gillespies primary (but not in catchment area), or Tollcross primary, the catchment school, AND she will be allocated a place in Gillespies secondary right? 99.9%?

The non-British child can't live legally in the UK to go to a state school.
I don't know if the school would check right to reside but outstaying a tourist visa would mean they couldn't come back to the UK in the future.

Itsigginingtolookalotlikexmas, she is 10 now, dob 8/8/09. how time flies! Tollcross primary is the catchment feeder school into Gillespies. thats excellent idea, l still have solicitors email confirming purchase of our house. so perhaps could email this to them and a copy of the missives. was your child living abroad at the time? how did they adapt to Edinburgh state school? Gillespies too?

take a look at the City of Edinburgh council website, it has pages about applying for a state school place.

No unfortunately, not abroad and not same school! We were just moving house. Sounds like you'd be moving for the last year of primary which would be a good idea, chance to make friends in the smaller setting before moving on. Remember catchment friends will live near you, which is very good for socialising compared to attending a school further away from your home.

So you live in England and your child lives in HK but you want to apply for a school place in Edinburgh - is that right ?

You will have to show that you and your child are actually living in the house in the catchment area, as it’s obviously been rented out long term. Just owning it isn’t enough - many properties in the Uk are owned by people who live overseas, it doesn’t entitle them to a school Place.

The council will be very strict about requiring all the paperwork and evidence on this. They also have access to other local government information, so they are able to see if information is accurate.

Unfortunately some people make fraudulent applications for school places in popular Edinburgh schools . The Council are well aware of this and know about all the loopholes that people try to use. So you will need to have all the evidence to show that you are a genuine applicant.

Does your child have the right to remain in the Uk or does she have an education visa to study here ?

I can’t imagine anyone would want to evict long term tenants, give up their job in Manchester and move their child To the other side of the world, away from their family, friends and school in HK just for 6 months.

Also you talk of the child attending high school, so clearly you plan for her to stay in the UK long term. You would need to consult your embassy In HK about visas etc to see if this is possible. As a PP pointed out, it would be very foolish to over stay on a tourist visa. The immigration authorities will not care how clever she is or how well she does in school.

I’m assuming that you are the child’s father and she lives in HK with her mother, is that right ? I would be very concerned about the distress to the child from removing her from her mothers care. I see that she is 10, so not too small, but even then it would be a huge upheaval.

Yes the state schools in Edinburgh are good, but so are the schools in HK. If I were you, I would think about this very carefully - is this really in your child’s best interest.

Of course the same applies if you are the mother and the child lives With her father. It’s about the emotional distress to the child compared to any benefit she may get from attending a different school and moving to another country.

thanks for your post. Things are far from unpleasant, she loves Edinburgh, we visit every summer. She is popular at school, family and easily makes friends. She would love to go to school in Edinburgh, with open arms and cheek to cheek smile! So no 'huge upheaval'
As I said earlier she is a British National, as I am British.
I would never evict the current tenants, they are Edinburgh University students, who would have their studies surely disrupted. They will leave in June. So am I correct in believing I have 2 'optimal' choices for her to attend primary school asap..
1. to call the primary schools of interest to see if they have available spaces from my current residence a Manchester address (though I do have close relatives in Edinburgh). If spaces are available in that school, rent a place in Edinburgh, preferably as close as possible, but either way it will be an out of area catchment application if done from Manchester right? A catchment / out of catchment application would not have priority for a mid term application correct?
2. If my daughter doesnt get a place in the primary school I desire, she will be enrolled to a non catchment primary school, and pretty much guaranteed (~99% ?) a place in the catchment state secondary school right? since we will be living in the catchment area for the desired catchment secondary school?
thanks to all for sharing your knowledge :)

Tollcross Primary is a lovely school and there is a good chance they would be able to fit your child in, although they have had waiting lists for the younger years lately. If I was you, I'd contact them to ask about places, but it could change before you get here, there is no reserving places ahead of time. We didn't have to provide evidence of where we were living when my son started at Tollcross, but it might be different at a school with a waiting list. If you're in catchment for Gillespie's High you should get her in whether she attends a Gillespie's feeder or not.