Private school vs Vineyard vs Sheen Mount

[RTwins20]

Dear Mums,

We have 2 year old twins (boy & girl) and we are researching schools in the Richmond and Kingston area. We are lucky enough to be very flexible in our move. My hubby is keen on a state school (due to financial burden of the private option) whereas I prefer private. I grew up in inner London schools and with all honesty I wouldn't want my kids to have the same experience as I did growing up.

The plan is to send to them to an excellent state school and supplement with private tuition in order to get into a Grammar or a private secondary school.

The two state schools we liked where Vineyard and Sheen Mount. Thomson House looked also interesting due to the background of board of Governors (a few work or are affiliated to private schools) however the area does not appeal to me.

My issue is I am unable to gauge how well these state schools compare academically to the private schools?

The private option I was pushing for is Kew college as they do well academically and are less expensive in comparison to other private schools. having said that it is still substantial amount. They tend to send their children to private secondary schools and do not focus on Grammar entrance exam preparation.

Would you say these State school can be at par with private schools academically? At the Kew college open day, they claimed that children there are all working 1-year head of the syllabus, therefore by year 5 they would be doing year 6 work. This makes entrance exams easier to manage as in the early part of year 6.

Would love to hear any local mum’s experiences.

Thanks,

In this area many people mix and match state and private. The big thing you are buying with privat3 is smaller class sizes. State schools won’t prep for 11 plus stat3 Grammar or private. Private schools should prep for private secondary. Thruth is tutoring i# rife whatever sector

I was told by friends with older kids that their kids also had private Tution even though they went to private schools! The expense is astonishing when you are paying for both!

My three sons all went to a state primary school (St James's in Twickenham) and went on to private secondary schools (one at Hampton, one at Kingston Grammar, and the last one in year 5 but has a place already at Hampton.) My three stepsons went to Newland House, which is a well- regarded private primary and then to three different private secondaries. Having a six-child basis of comparison I can tell you categorically that there is no need to send your children to a private school here in Richmond. The top state primaries in this borough will give them as good an education as the private schools.

My two older sons went on to Hampton and KGS from a state school and were mixed there with kids from other local state schools and also from private schools. They did not feel there was any difference in preparedness for secondary school between state school and private school kids, or any other disadvantage. Most of the kids from my sons' primary school who applied for private secondary schools got into a good one. They are all doing just as well there as the prep school kids. Honestly, if your kids are going to end up in the same secondary school class whether you send them private or state, why spend all that money?

The only advantage of private school is the non-academic offerings: quality music lessons if you want to pay for them, more arts teaching, more specialist sports staff, nicer food. With the Tories' recent school cuts the state schools have had to cut a lot of non-core offerings. But the basic education at one of our local state primaries is excellent.

I would advise reading the Ofsted reports for the local schools (better than SATs based league tables) and visit a few of them to get a feel. Pick your favourite and try to get into the catchment area. If you aren't happy with what your child is getting there you can always move them later on -- the private schools will take them in upper grades.

If you want to go selective for secondary, tutoring will be essential, but you don't need to start until year 4 or 5.

Good luck!

I'd rather buy an actual vineyard.

It does depend on where you live and possibly avoiding a poor option, but I see many students come into university with grades they have clearly been hand fed through extra teachers, taking exams below the level of teaching as you describe, tutoring etc. They get to university and it all falls apart because no one is handing them anything easily any more and the playing field levels out.

Everyone is different of course, but I typically see students who have gotten themselves through education flourish and come out on top, whilst the ones who have had all the extras designed to give them advantages fall flat.

It's tricky because you want to give them best opportunities, but they need to learn to work for achievements without advantages that will not continue into the real world. So keep an eye on them is my advice. Maybe sign them up for something extra curricular they are rubbish at but enjoy and make sure they stick with it and be positive about it, so they learn to appreciate value of their own hard work and the need to work through things without advantages or misleading reward of seeming better than others, when there isn't a fair comparison.

I would still go with the actual vineyard:)

Out of curiosity why is sheen mount and vineyard more favourable than all the other outstanding schools in the neighbourhood ?

I don't think they are any better particularly, it's just a posher catchment area than most! Quite honestly, all the primaries in Richmond are pretty good.

You mention Kingston too - all the state primary schools in North Kingston are rated outstanding and are excellent schools. I wouldnt spend my money on private for primary, maybe secondary, but not primary when there are so many excellent state schools in those areas.

Agree with spending money on private primary being a bit of a waste. DD went to Darell, which is not rated outstanding, has a very socially mixed student body with all the obvious challenges that brings, and many go private to avoid; it does not get high percentages of children reaching the expected standard (though progress tends to be much better than many schools that have higher attainment - I think we got the best progress figures in the borough in 2017). She applied for two of the most selective schools there are and got into both.

Also, don't believe the hype around tutoring. DD had very little compared to most (about six months, with breaks for holidays) and what she had wasn't about subject knowledge but really focused on exam technique and working to time. You definitely don't need to be cramming them from year four if they are bright.

The working a year ahead sounds like hype too. DD and several of her friends at Darell were easily tackling Y6 work in Y5. They all took practice SATs at the beginning of Y6 and all DD's close friends passed easily. A good school will cater to the abilities of the class and make sure everyone is getting something reasonably challenging. DD had endless enrichment activities eg secondary maths teacher coming in to do logic with them once a week, workshops, puzzle sessions and loads more.

She also had good and inexpensive music tuition throughout KS2 through the Richmond Music Trust and did really well with this. At school, they learnt a ton of different instruments as part of normal class music - recorder, guitar, ukulele, keyboard etc and all free. The specialist music teacher at Darell is genuinely amazing - she gives them so many really high quality performance opportunities which are so good for building confidence and she is so encouraging, kind and enthusiastic.

They did loads of art at school, including trips to galleries etc. They did loads of PE - different sports each term. I honestly don't know what the point of paying would have been!

I know all state schools are facing additional challenges now with budgets falling etc, but I can honestly say that DD had one of the best educations she or I could have hoped for without paying a penny (other than for instrumental tuition, which is subsidised for those on a low income). Hopefully something will change higher up and these schools will be able to continue offering the excellent education that they are capable of.

Hi RT
Richmond is indeed an area where many do both state and indie. I’ve covered both Richmond state primary and top independent and state secondary. I would absolutely go for state primary in this borough. Sheen Mount and vineyard are excellent. You will certainly need to tutor from year 5 to prepare for exams if you are going for Tiffin or going private but you will find that many of the kids at prep school do the same.
One of the enormous pluses of going local is that your child’s friends will, in all likelihood, live very nearby. As they get older, not only in yr 6 when they can easily walk or scoot to a friends house, but when you have teenagers who want to stay out late, it is fantastic to have a group of local friends on your doorstep. In my experience and for many friends’ children, whether they go on to Christ’s, Tiffin, Latymer, Hampton etc, they remain pals and that ease of having friends in walking distances is one of the big differences I see to friends children who have gone to preps where kids come not only from the local area but perhaps from Chiswick, Petersham etc which requires a kind parent to deliver and pick up! A huge bonus I never would have appreciated when we made the decision to go to our local primary.

I would echo other posters who have said that come year 7 there is no difference between the kids who were at preps and those at the good Richmond primaries except that one group may have enjoyed themselves far more and been under a great deal less pressure! Keep in mind some of the preps will tell parents or even the children, their test scores as they compare to others in their year group- leaving many feeling rubbish about themselves. Many of the top secondaries have dropped such practices as they tackle mental health issues. It’s worth checking these small details, you don’t want your child writing themselves off as rubbish at maths when they are 9!
My children’s primary also did loads of art sport and science. You have to remember these are often the same kinds of parents as those whose kids go to preps, they will provide resources to the school through their parents association or otherwise to help make sure their kids have all the bells and whistles. My concern with year six at some of the preps is an enormous amount of time is spent on doing maths, English and reasoning practice tests rather than doing say, an art project or science class (as these subjects aren’t covered on 11+).

We are thinking about Holy trinity for next year. Does anyone have children there or current views? Shame the amazing head is leaving though!

It’s a brilliant school with a happy community and very talented teachers. The deputy head and department leads are all fantastic.

Obviously so is the amazing head teacher - but my point is that she’s built an amazing team around her!

New2kew, thank you. I have heard marshgate and sheen mount are thought of as more academic schools? Do you think this is fair? At the moment we are planning private secondary school so we are looking for a school that will push our child. Dificult to know until you are there I think. Sheen mount is very big and hasn’t been inspected for over 10 years so not overly keen on that to be honest!

All the schools in this part of Richmond borough are equally 'academic' in that high ability children do very well in all of them. Children of all abilities in fact do very well, but 'academic' seems to imply that you are worried about the top end of the ability range.

The differences in absolute outcomes are largely due to individual cohorts; schools aren't sausage machines and children aren't sausages.

I know all these schools and they are all excellent. Children from all of them go on to selective private schools. The primary schools will all have a slightly different feel and ethos, so if I were you I would simply put the one you like best after visiting as your first choice. Don't worry about perceptions of how academic they are - all these schools are trying to get the absolute best outcomes for all their children.

I wouldn't worry about the schools not having been inspected for 10 years - there is a robust system of local authority advisers.

Thanks that is helpful. My concern is that actually I don’t think my child is particularly bright, enthusiastic but not achieving greatness (at age 3!) I am looking for a school that will be nurturing and caring, able to provide differentiated work and try to push my child to do better. We may well move to try to avoid the crazy 11+situation in this area but if not we would like our child to pass the exam into one of the schools- Kingston grammar, Latimer etc (we aren’t aiming for St. Paul’s!) I don’t believe in classifying children as bright/not, I think that given enough help and support all children can achieve, you just have to adapt to their learning style. Do you think this is possible in one of these schools or should we be looking at private primary for this?

I can’t comment on the other schools as this was our first choice -we gave up a place at a private primary as we knew our kids would do well at Holy Trinity. They are both very different, both are thriving and I’m certain they will have plenty of options once secondary school choices come round. I’d definitely recommend popping down to have a chat with the head, and going to the summer fairs as you’ll get an idea of what the school community is like. All the kids I know are doing well for themselves and the teachers aim very high for them.

Sorry to jump in on this thread over a year later but we are in the predicament now. My husband went to look at Holy Trinity and thought it was a very special school. We are looking to move to a house next door to Sheen Mount but wondered where the kids mostly live when going to Holy Trinity?
It would be a shame that if we live right next door to Sheen Mount but the kids don’t get in they don’t know the neighborhood kids.
And last question, if you could choose between the two schools which would be your first choice?
Thanks 😊

Kitty, I have no direct experience of either school but I know that Holy Trinity is highly praised and I know of some people leaving Kew College (private school and very academic, although lacking a bit in space and the prep school in the area most focused on academics above all) to join Holy Trinity when they finally got a place for Y1 recently. Sheen Mount is also very well regarded, perhaps today a bit less so than Holy Trinity but I would not know why. Between the two, I think the decision depends on your children (boys or girls, sporty, non sporty, etc). Perhaps Holy Trinity is more nurturing on top of delivering results. So it depends on the child, but you cannot go wrong. In terms of location, it is all the same neighbourhood really so you cannot be far away from the class at either if you get in one of the schools It would be a tough decision and a great problem to have! Mind also the religious criteria that will apply to Holy Trinity.

@Stilllookingfor thanks so much for your reply!
What if we added East Sheen and Thomson House School into the mix? My boy is sporty and social. My girl would have missed reception year cause we are coming from Norway and go straight into grade 1 so she might be intimidated if its a very pushy school.
Thanks for your help :)

Thomson House School also excellent. East Sheen I know less, and it is a bigger school.

I'm a Richmond parent and maths tutor ( so i may be biased ) and have 11+ students from both state and private.

Prep schools like Kings / Kew college are 'ahead' in content when compared with state schools. But also in the direction of the entrance exams of the top independent schools.

State schools in Richmond are Outstanding and I am not criticising them, but they headed towards the SATS alone. There is a huge difference between the both.

The success of the state schools in terms of where the children go to secondary Tiffins, SPGS, SPB, GL, etc... is a reflection of the parents and child, and not the school.

Expect the school to do the core work, but you either have to do extra work yourself and it can be done or get tutors in.

My DD1 was in Marshgate 2 years ago.
In her year she and 6 others got Tiffins.
Out of those 7.... 4 tried for GL but only 2 got GL (including my DD1)
For my DD1 we had a choice of Tiffins, GL and SPGS.
DD1 and my wife preferred GL where she currently at.

Last year only 2 got Tiffins, of which 1 via waitlist.

Vineyard and Sheen mount are perceived quite exclusive due to the small catchment area and the catchment area is the prime location that Richmond has to offer (top of the hill).

Good Luck !!