Supplementing state school primary education

[wantitall]

Hi all,

My DS has been offered a reception place at n excellent state primary school for Sept , which I am very excited about. I initially agonised and toyed with the idea of sending him to an independent primary and finally decided on the local state school, which I really liked after visiting them. However, I do wanted to check in with all you experienced mommies on 2 things:

1. what extra curricular aspects he is likely to be missing out on at a state school that I should consider supplementing privately? I am thinking sport, music, drama, languages etc...
2. I am not sure how academic a child he will be, but I would like him to join a private secondary or a grammar school (i know I am thinking way ahead) and so any advice on when I should start actively prepping him for the competitive admissions for secondary would be more than welcome. My own gut feel is that I should just let him be at least till Y2 and enjoy being a child , and then start enrolling him for math or other classes post that stage. Does that make sense ? OR I am being naive about just how competitive it is out there?

Any and all advice is helpful. Thanks !

Depends on which school he is going to but the vast majority do extra-curricular stuff anyway such as Photography, Nature club, Cookery, Football, Ballet, Music and Drama. As for prepping for Grammars all they need is between 9 mths and a year in year 6 depending on ability. The child has to WANT to do it as there is no point trying to force a child to do masses of Maths, verbal and non-verbal reasoning if they are dead against it. Paying for tutors is a complete waste of money too if the ability isn't there. As an 11+ examiner I can assure you the exams are gearing more towards the ability of the child not the ability of the tutor to fleece you for your cash.

Thanks MajorClanger.....
That is v heartening to find out especially from an 11+ examiner.. I see children around me going to pre-preps and preps, with the goal of moving to grammar schools at 11+ (and some others for selective independents for secondary) . And these kids are actively tutored even for the 7+, hence my worries about my DS not being able to "make the cut" if I start the focus on prepping for grammars during late KS2.
I totally agree on the ability and aptitude front.. hence my aversion to subject him to any prep frenzy in the early years. Thanks a lot !

Anybody knows kids who went to state primary and then managed to get into private schools like Kings at a secondary stage ?

I know of quite a few (local-to-Merton) children who get into Kingston Grammar (which is private) from state primaries, but not aware of anyone who's made the leap to KCS - but that doesn't mean it's not possible or indeed doesn't happen! Perhaps worth asking KCS Admissions or Registrar directly?

And plenty of DCs from Merton state primaries go to the Sutton and Kingston state grammars, despite increasing pressure on places.

This part of SWLondon is full of 'spin' by parents with sharp elbows - hold tight to your resolve for your DS and you'll be fine, even in the 'state' sector ! Challenge him and supplement what he does at school with a 'broad brush' approach to education (in the wider sense). And keep an eye on the 11+Forum if you're interested in the grammar schools!

Good luck!

Hi wantitall

I quote from The Sunday Times (Review Section: Education) of last weekend (in which Andrew Halls, Headteacher of King's College School Wimbledon) shared his views in an article titled 'Your dream school: entrance this way':

"meeting with their form teacher, ideally in Year 5. Unless that person is very inexperienced or hopeless, they should help you get a clear sense of your child's potential. You may need to speak again at the beginning of Year 6: boys in particular mature academically in often fitful and surprising ways.

All the time, you will want to weigh up the degree to which your child's current school is a help or a hindrance. Does it have expertise in helping children into the school or schools you have in mind?

Such expertise is by no means limited ot expensive preparatory schools - there are many fantastic primary schools that teach well, and understand the local market better than anyone..."

Hope that helps!

You've made a good choice, it's perfectly possible to get to into any if the grammars or indies from Merton's great state primaries.

All 3 of my DC went to one. DS and DS2 left after Year 2 and went to KCJS. DD is just finishing Year 6 and will go to Putney on a scholarship - she also got Tiffin but we preferred Putney.

My view is that if you child has the potential to get into any of these schools they can from the state primaries. They will need tutoring but only for a year or so before the exams.

KCS have recently changed their entrance arrangements to take the majority of boys at 11+ rather than 13+ - this will help boys coming from the state sector. The reason we moved DS1 and DS2 at 7 was because we really liked the school but the odds were so bad at 11 it justified paying from 7-11.

For extra curricular the thing the primaries most lack is sport. In Merton though there are loads of opps. If you want cricket you'd be advised to get name down for Wimbledon Cricket Club but all the other sports are easy to arrange.

The state primaries have Music Merton Foundation to provide music tuition.

We're really lucky to have such great schools in Merton.

I totally agree with everything that's been said so far.

I know families with DCs (currently or in the recent past) at many Merton primaries including Bishop Gilpin, Wimbledon Park, Dundonald, Wimbledon Chase, Holy Trinity etc...and the children go on to a wide variety of schools (state comprehensive and selective, and private).

Some children do get 'creamed off' at 7 to go to prep schools but many stay on at their state primary school until 11, but with the expectation (from parents and the schools themselves, if they're being realistic) that many will go on to grammars or private secondary schools, rather than the local state options (although these are promoted too).

Our own experience with DC1 (who was at one of the local state primaries and is now at a nearby super-selective grammar) was that the class teacher in Year 5 flagged up that we should be looking at selective schools for him (based on his ability), although the Headteacher was idealistically against any 'hothousing schools' (as she deemed them) and therefore less directly helpful (but that's by no means a given - know the Head at Singlegate but on extra classes for those interested in doing the 11+ exams).

We worked (at home, not with a tutor) with DC1 ourselves for six months from mid-Year 5 until the 11+ exams. He passed all he took (and all but one of his CAF preferences was for selective entry level). Five others from his class gained 'selective places' and one went on to a prep school (and is now at an indie).

This is just a snapshot example which will be replicated elsewhere in Merton and wider area too!

Don't think you have anything to fear whichever way you choose to progress your DS's 'up-to-eleven' education!

Good luck!

Thanks all, this is very reassuring. DC will be going to holy trinity. Wonder of anyone has specific thoughts on it? My assessment based on conversations with the children, some staff as well as some of my neighbours is that not many children sit the 11+ exams from holy Trinity, but those who do seem to have a high success rate. Anyone has any thoughts ?
I really liked the school in terms of being a good wholesome setting to start formal education, and totally love the idea of DS having a good set of local friends in the area. The only creeping doubt I have us whether he will be in a significant minority sitting the 11+ at holy trinity..

Holy Trinity is a highly sought after school so you are very lucky that your DS has been given a place there. It is however one of the schools that I know, certainly a few years ago, had an exodus-at-7 to prep schools. This based on having friends whose children got in there from the waiting list at this stage.

Does it matter though if he is in a minority? DS actually found it quite pressured sitting 11+ exams with so many of his school's cohort (about half of his class sat at least one selective school exam - very aspirational parents but clever class too!). It was awful when the results came out and it felt wrong to actually have to 'confess' that DS had been successful when others hadn't...So in that sense having fewer friends to be in competition with can only be seen as positive - and will take the pressure off your DS.

FWIW, based on my own observations of DCs going to the Sutton and Kingston grammars, there are lots of children from Wimbledon and other parts of Merton who go BUT they don't necessarily cluster in friendship groups by 'home postcode'. DS has some 'bus' friends from his school (in different year groups) but his better friends from his grammar school aren't from Merton at all!

Even if your DS is in a minority doing the 11+ from Holy Trinity, it won't do him any harm - what are your specific concerns?

Willemdefoeismone, Thanks for your perspective , which frankly I hadn't thought of. My worry was if he is going to feel like he is being put under undue pressure when a lot of his friends in school may not be. Not really a big thing I know... But one of my friends moved her child to a prep a few years before the 11+ and said that her daughter didn't mind all the extra work she was putting in for the 11+ as most of her friends were doing the same and so, it felt like the norm rather than the exception... Different perspectives I guess... And also different children react so differently under pressure.. Hard to really predict, isn't it?

Play it by ear, wantitall. It's possibly way too soon to tell what type of DC your DS will be at 9/10 (when he would need to be doing 11+ prep). If he's competitive though, he's bound to enjoy the challenge as my DS did.

All children (and parents) are different but really it shouldn't be so all-consuming - and unlikely to be if he stays in the state sector until 11 (although rather different in prep schools which seem very focused on being able to show how many scholarships/bursaries/11+ passes their pupils have achieved) - that it seems like lots of extra work.

More and more of the 11+ exams (including those for the Tiffin schools) are moving towards examining children in Maths/English alone (although that's happened since DS took his a few years ago), so the 'extra work' would perhaps just be more focused homework and reading/writing/maths exercises which could be shoe-horned into school-related studies (so it doesn't noticeably seem more!).

As a parent too, you may benefit from not being surrounded by the 'spin' (mentioned upthread) that can really make that whole preparation period rather stressful.

It is also worth considering that the nature of 11+ selection process, catchment areas, ring-fenced places for children in receipt of 'Pupil Premium' and the upward trend demand for places is evolving all the time, so grammar school entrance now is likely to be a very different 'creature' to how it looked a decade ago and how it will look ten years hence.

Best thing to do is keep asking questions on here, on the main 'Education' board and the 11+ Forum.

Out of interest, do most of the Holy Trinity children go to non-selective schools in Merton or private ones or possibly 'faith ones' out-of-borough - assuming the former but find this quite suprising!

We had a different experience at a Merton state primary. There was absolutely no help or advice whatsoever regarding selective schools, whether state or independent. It was assumed that all children would go to one of the Merton secondaries and teachers were not allowed to say whether or not they thought a child was good enough to try for a selective school. As a result, many parents paid for private tutoring, despite the fact that many of the children probably would not have a hope of getting into a selective school. The opposite was also true; there were possibly children who could have gone to a selective school but their parents didn't apply.
There was absolutely no mention at school of 11+ or any extra classes for the exams, it was up to parents to inform themselves.

Hi CentreCourtWimbledon would you mind letting me know which school you are referring to? Or PM me. Thanks

I'm not sure, CentreCourtWimbledon, that any of the local state primaries go out of their way to help children with an eye on the 11+ prize, not least because there are no selective secondaries in Merton.

However, some SMTs at local state primaries are possibly more receptive/open to responding to parental demand than others.

I cannot imagine though that any teacher directly asked if they think a child is of 'selective ability' would not give a relatively honest appraisal of said child's abilities.

Also, I would say that as a parent one should know if a child has that type of aptitude or not. To think that throwing money at a tutor will get the desired outcome, regardless of a child's academic aptitude, is possibly naive on the part of parents.

Wouldn't you say?

I've heard that Bishop Gilpin run additional classes for those children sitting 11+, but that is just hearsay and may not be true.
I know of at least one set of parents who were told in Yr 6 that their child would have been bright enough to get into a state selective school, which was a bit too late! It just hadn't occurred to the parents. It probably happens less these days because I think people are more clued up, but if you're not at the school gate regularly you might not even realise that there are other options.
I know of dozens of children who have been tutored without a hope of being the standard for Tiffin/Sutton grammars and who haven't got in. That's fine if the tutoring has helped them in general, but if they've spent hours on VR/NVR to no avail, then that's a sad waste of time and money.

I have 2 children in selective secondaries but was never told in primary that they should apply or that I should have them tutored, so I do have some experience of this. Their teachers couldn't advise me at all as to whether they were of selective ability so I just had to hope they were.

I don't know if Bishop Gilpin does (or not) but given the socio-economic demographic of the children and parents there, I wouldn't be at all surprised (perhaps another local MNetter could enlighten us???). I know that in recent years Singlegate has definitely run an after-school class in NVR/VR for their older pupils.

We were completely ignorant ourselves until DC1 got to about Year 5, then DW made it her business to research the subject to the nth degree. DC1's state primary didn't offer any help to his class at all, even though they were an exceptionally bright lot. Nevertheless, the parents researched the schools, what was required and some got tutors. We just did some extra-curricular work with DC1 ourselves (happily it was enough to get him into a super-selective).

I guess the chattering classes (and lots of families from abroad who make it their business to find out!) do tend to know about the 11+ and many will have factored it into their game-plan before the children are out of pre-school. For the rest of us it's just a case of muddling along - but there is a wealth of info around, so it's not hard to come by, should one have the time and inclination.

On the subject of tutors, I think there are probably good, middling and not so good ones (as with any line of work!). It's a very lucrative revenue stream, isn't it??? It's my impression that most will tell parents if they think the children are of selective ability (or not). BUT I do know that some parents (including a few of my friends!) refuse to take no for an answer!

Tutoring may not necessarily have an advantageous outcome in securing a grammar school place but I can't imagine that it's likely to be disadvantageous to any child - or is it???