Richmond Borough Schools Chat 6

[BayJay2]

Hello! This is the latest thread in a series originally triggered by Richmond Council's Education White Paper in Feb 2011. We chat about local education policy, the local impact of national policy, local school performance, and admissions-related issues.

Please do join in. There’s a bunch of us who’ve been following the thread for a long time, and we sometimes get a bit forensic, but new contributions are always welcome.

If you have a few hours to spare and want to catch up on 4 years of local education history, then below are the links to the old threads. We have to keep starting new threads because each only hold 1000 posts. The first two run in parallel, as one was started on the national Mumsnet site, and the other locally:

1a) New Secondaries for Richmond Borough? (Feb 11 - Nov 11)
1b) New Secondary schools for Richmond! (Feb 11-Nov 11)

1. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2 (Nov 11-May 12)
2. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 3 (May 12-Nov 12)
3. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 4 (Nov 12-Oct 13)

1. Richmond Borough Schools Chat 5 (Oct 13-Nov 14)
2. Richmond Borough Schools Chat 6 (Nov 14 - ????) : This thread!

I am afraid that the understanding of Specific Learning Difficulties (Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, Dyscalculia etc are labels for particular manifestations but every individual will be different and it does not conform to the commonly held stereotypes) is inconsistent in the state and private sector alike, especially at primary level. A certain local private prep refused to accept that any bright child could have a learning difficulty and need support even when they had a diagnosis. Often getting decent support for your child is down to a specific teacher who has that knowledge and experience, even the specialist teachers vary in their effectiveness. Teacher training can amount to a 2 hour lecture, which given 10% of the population are affected regardless of ability is pretty inadequate. I know parents who succeeded in pursuading their state school over in Hackney that had not supported their child, into training their teachers and becoming a centre of excellence and proud of their ability to diagnose and support pupils. The irony is that by the time they reach university, if a student's confidence isn't completely undermined, the support is really excellent.

The government haven't helped either, a lot of bright pupils lost their extra time in exams because the government decided to impose an arbitrary cut off for working memory and processing scores, basically they have to be in the bottom 14% of the population for a pupil to get extra time. Ed Pychs, the charities and private school associations are objecting to the discrimination against bright pupils with SpLDs who may experience a significant level of disability with higher scores, whilst those pupils who are of a level of ability which you would predict would have low scores without it being regarded as a learning disability are getting extra time automatically.

It is all rather depressing and feels like things are going backwards after so many years of increasing understanding and support.

I don't know enough about dyslexia but if the state sector is unable to cope with it, there's no reason why classroom teachers in prep schools are better equipped - research, best practice and training comes through the state sector (no teacher training colleges for private schools). And as you say, it's not part of general training. If private schools have 'better' teachers it's just down to subject knowledge at secondary level - private schools are more likely to be selective and have sixth forms. It's hard for Radnor House to position itself as both 'selective' and 'inclusive' though, so it's probably going for the former. Your DCs have done really well but selective schools discriminate, I'm afraid.

The tyranny of the league tables don't acknowledge state schools' work with SEN pupils either so Nicky Morgan's latest pronouncement is as ignorant as it is unrealistic.

bad grammar

Actually mum I was mostly commenting on primary /prep level. Most of the selective secondary's around here do aim to be inclusive and do not seem to discriminate in selection, and that is apparent in the proportions of pupils at the schools getting diagnosis and support. It was a question I asked for obvious reasons and at most it is about 10% which since that is the incidence in the whole population points to them being inclusive and being effective in identifying difficulties. The support when pupils get diagnosed is patchy but Hampton and Latymer Upper even have state of the art centres of excellence, drop in centres where pupils can access support and equipment such as Kindles, and I also know a pupil who is getting exceptional individual support at Westminster.

The stated intention for the selection process of most schools is to focus on ability rather than attainment /tutoring so if they are successful in that then you would expect them to select around 10% who are either already diagnosed (and almost all give extra time in the entrance exams to those with a diagnosis) or will be diagnosed at a later stage. An emphasis on reasoning papers in the entrance process (Wimbledon High are now selecting purely on reasoning papers, as the Tiffins used to, though the latter use pretty poor quality ones that appear to be tutorable), which are actually used by Ed Psychs as part of the diagnostic process to determine the ability of those with SpLDs, is particularly inclusive. As are the exams for the more selective schools that try to test lateral thinking and logic skills. And most schools know the difference between an accurate answer that does not show much evidence of intellectual skills and one full of silly errors (or even misread) that does.

Obviously there is a level of disability where these sorts of school would not be able to provide the level of support needed, and in any case would provide a confidence sapping environment so to that extent they discriminate but plenty of bright pupils with SpLDs get selected and can and do do well at these secondary schools.

I don't know the situation at Radnor but the only independent school that I know of that does not aim to be inclusive is Ibstock, the Head there makes it quite clear to new parents, presumably part of her strategy for getting the school up the league tables, but she is a notable exception.

LBRUT is known for having relatively good strategies for addressing the issue at Secondary level with specialist units and quite a few pupils being transported and having fees paid for specialist schools like More House. Though relatively good is probably still leaving a lot of pupils who achieve above average levels in spite of their difficulties without the support that would enable them to achieve their greater potential. That is certainly a common complaint I have heard from the Helen Arkyll centre (incidentally a fantastic resource for local parents www.arkellcentre.org.uk )

I am of course oblivious to bad grammar

The term 'inclusive' is inappropriate for any schools restricting admissions according to ability to pay, let alone select.

Nationally the proportion of pupils with SEN (statement or school action plus) is 9.3% but that's a very wide range of physical, emotional and complex SEN from mild to severe. The borough SEN policy describes them.

The range of needs catered for at LEH are described as 'mild cases of dyslexia and dyspraxia'. At Tiffin Girls their SEND policy also acknowledges e.g. ' speech and language needs, autistic spectrum disorder, Asperger’s syndrome, learning difficulties and behaviour difficulties'. In practice with only 2% having SEN it may be no different from LEH but private schools are under no obligation to publish figures.

mum I wasn't arguing that selective independent schools are not exclusive economically and in terms of ability, just that they aim to be inclusive of those who are able and have Specific Learning Difficulties, or indeed are not neurotypical in other ways that affect learning eg autism. The 10% figure I quoted is the incidence of Specific Learning Difficulties in the general population www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/dyslexic/dyslexia-and-specific-learning-difficulties-in-adults and being supported in independent schools, I can vouch for that being the proportion at LEH and whilst they may regard their girls as suffering from mild Dyslexia, because bright pupils tend to mask the degree of disability via coping strategies etc., if working memory and processing scores are in the bottom 14% of the population that are required to qualify for extra time but ability is in the top 5% or higher then an Ed Psych would categorise it as a moderate to severe disability.

The figure you quote is those supported with SEN of all types supported via a statement or action plus in state schools. The fact that figure does not reflect the incidence of Specific Learning Disability, let alone all the other sources of SEN, in the population just reflects why it is that parents of children with Specific Learning Difficulties such as those highlighted by Lottie feel the need to move to the private sector. As I understand it if you have an able child with SEN in the state sector it is unlikely they will, or at least not without a considerable fight on the part of parents, get access to the limited resources available for meeting SEN. Understandable given the priorities but still representing a lot of pupils who fail to achieve their potential and suffer psychologically /in terms of confidence. Sadly there is still a belief that having SEN equates to low ability and that is implicit in the setting of priorities.

There is also a lot of narrow mindedness in terms of focusing on "traditional" teaching methods and aims, which as you highlight this government are in the process of entrenching, which contribute to the difficulties faced by those who have SpLDs, there is plenty of research that shows that inclusive teaching methods that work better for those with Specific Learning Difficulties work for other pupils as well. However I have only heard of one school that actively embraced that research and implemented it and that was KGS under the previous Head.

Pity because society recognises what those who are not neurotypical can achieve. I do hope that Turing House especially, given who it's name is in honour of, is going to provide an environment in which those pupils can thrive

rt.com/uk/189580-gchq-dyslexic-spies-recruited/

Was Alan Turing dyslexic? Engineering and Technology Magazine 10.11.14:

. . Alan Turing – the man whose work paved the way for the modern computer, the Second World War codebreaker and the all-round genius – was dyslexic too. Well, allegedly. But not according to Sir John Dermot Turing, Alan's nephew . . "Never heard of nor seen any evidence of Alan having been dyslexic," he says . .

I wouldn't dispute your knowledge or experience of dyslexia. But the borough schools are helping many children with a range of complex needs. I've also seen those children turned down by private schools but given a wide range of assistance in the state sector. I've heard stories of children with ADHD in the lower years in prep schools with no specialist back-up - who are eventually asked to leave.

I am uneasy about dividing any children into 'bright/able' and the rest when intelligence is not fixed, and children keep developing in spurts throughout secondary school. But with moderate to severe SEN which are all barriers to learning, it seems even crueller to differentiate between the 'bright and deserving' and other.

Chris agree retrospective diagnosis is a bit daft but then again if it helps shed light on some of the traits of those with Specific Learning Difficulties and Autism that don't conform to commonly held stereotypes, particularly the conflation with low ability then it serves a purpose. I read elsewhere that Benedict Cumbernatch said that he would not want to categorise the traits he portrays in Sherlock or as Turing as Autism or Dyslexia because of the considerable challenges he knows that some people face as a result of being affected, which the parts he plays do not accurately reflect, which is a very good point.

mum I am not at all undermining the good work being done for those with SEN in the state sector but the fact remains that current policies and regulations on extra time etc. do discriminate against those with Specific Learning Difficulties who are of high ability . Part of the process of diagnosis is making that judgement of whether ability is in the above average to very superior ranges. The spikiness of the profile, with much lower scores for attainment, working memory etc than you would predict for the level of ability is the basis for diagnosis and assessing the degree of disability, but not sadly always the degree of support.

There’s nothing wrong with retrospective diagnosis as long as one remembers that it is only a conjecture and it is likely to be incomplete or just plain wrong.

Turing’s DNB entry (free to library members), written by his biographer, says nothing about dyslexia:

. . By this time Turing was the genius loci at Bletchley Park, famous as ‘Prof’, shabby, nail-bitten, tieless, sometimes halting in speech and awkward of manner, the source of many hilarious anecdotes about bicycles, gas masks, and the Home Guard, the foe of charlatans and status-seekers, relentless in long shift work with his colleagues . . Eccentric, solitary, gloomy, vivacious, resigned, angry, eager—these were Turing's ever-mercurial characteristics . .

An interesting role model for the Turing House students!

Or perhaps none of that had any relation whatsoever to dyslexia, Aspergers or whatever but to being gay when it was illegal in this country!

muminlondon2: No - AT's personal problems arose from his decision in the 50s, 10 years ahead of his time, not to live in the closet or be intimidated:

. . Turing was brought to trial on 31 March 1952 for his sexual relationship with a young Manchester man. He made no serious denial or defence, instead telling everyone that he saw no wrong in his actions. He was concerned to be open about his sexuality even in the hard atmosphere of Manchester engineering . .

. . Turing had also continued to be consulted by GCHQ . . but homosexuals had become ineligible for security clearance, and he was now excluded. His personal life was now subject to intense surveillance . .

State security personnel also seem to have been responsible for what he described as another intense crisis, as police searched for a visiting Norwegian youth, and a holiday in Greece taken by Turing was unlikely to calm the nerves of intelligence officers . . (DNB)

There is no record of his homosexuality being at issue when he was at Bletchley in the 40s, the period from which the stories of his eccentricity date - both were common in the intellectual circles from which he came.

There is also contemporary evidence that Turing continued to approach the issues he experienced as a result of his homosexuality with that same humour and openness up until his death and that a modern coroner would regard the lack of evidence of premeditation as being problematic in reaching a verdict of suicide. There is arguably equally evidence it may have been an accident www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18561092

To take the discussion back to role models that degree of resilience and meeting adversity with humour are qualities I think schools should be aiming to cultivate in their pupils, perhaps more so than the constant drive for academic results, sporting success, achievement in hoards of extra curricular activities etc. which puts so much stress on pupils and makes failure / adversity / taking risks so frightening.

RTT Online has MP criticised about east Twickenham schools place squeeze giving Cable a chance to repeat his criticism:

. . Richmond Council's cabinet member for education Councillor Paul Hodgins has criticised Dr Cable for using the issue for "election purposes". Dr Cable said the Conservative administration was "seriously embarrassed" over its record of finding schools places for children. He said:

I think, first of all, there is an element of serious embarrassment by the council because they were singled out by the government for having the worst record in England in terms of planning for schools places and being able to provide for children. It is very clear they missed the opportunity to acquire the Lidl site [at Ryde House] before last November and the opportunity of a joint-school use arose because I approached the company. They may not like it but had I not done that the opportunity would not have come.

He added the situation was exasperated by the previous Conservative administration’s "major failure" to secure a site at Richmond Lock, which was sold to a luxury developer.
………….
The main, unstated, reason for opening a school there (the former Brunel site) was that it would be close to the borough boundary and would attract many Hounslow children.
………….
RTT also has Turing House School close to two new sites which doesn’t add to what was in Friday’s paper except to say that the temporary site, Livingston House, is in Queens Road, Teddington, . . Conveniently located in the heart of Teddington, . . a short stroll from all amenities including a wide array of cafes, boutique retailers and . . Tesco . . which the owners wish to partially convert into flats (14/3764/FUL).

Just reading this thread back a few pages and wonder if I have missed the discussion about a new primary school (Deer Park school?) opening in the London House building just along from the BP garage on the A316. Or is this a complete fabrication?

deerparkschool.org.uk/

DarkBlueEyes, you'll need to go back to Thu 22-Jan-15 19:09:22.

Quick tip for finding things - click on 'Show all messages' so the thread is all on one page and then do a text search (Ctrl-f).

Looks like Collis got the funding to expand to 4-form.

www.vincecable.org.uk/school_investment

I do agree with Vince that expanding Collis is a better bet than a new primary free school. And also that if the RTT is right about Turing House's permanent site being in Whitton, it would not be fulfilling its original aim of being a local school. But that might be another red herring to distract us from some other site that can't be disclosed.

Dark Blue Eyes and others - there is also a new discussion starting about the Deer Park Primary school on Streetlife - www.streetlife.com

I also agree that expanding Collis to four forms is better for the children concerned than going to school in an office building with no green space on the junction of two major roads at Livingston House. But a lot of building work will be needed to accommodate four forms of entry throughout Collis including completely rebuilding the infant block and better facilities for catering etc. The junior block was rebuilt a few years ago for expansion to three form entry and will be very hard to adapt to this as there are groups of 3 classrooms on different floors in two different parts of the building. Also they failed to recruit a new headteacher last year - allegedly as not enough money to tempt anyone to manage a school this size - so that will need attention.

Some questions on schools at last nights Leaders Questiontime in East Twickenham, from Twitter:
^Next question is about Ryde House and the need for a new primary school in East Twickenham.
Cllr Hodgins "Primary School places is n.o. 1 priority. Working with Lidl 2encourage them 2consider a school. We want Ryde House 2ba school
Question: Can the Council compulsory purchase Ryde House for a school?
Lord True: No. It takes years and we would be fought through the courts. It would not be successful.
Question: Why does the Council support faith schools - including the opening of a new catholic school in the borough last year?
Cllr Hodgins "It was a long term manifesto commitment to support the opening of a catholic school in RuT......
"We were the only borough without a Catholic secondary school. Over 800 local children applied this yr. We have given those families choice"^

Re Collis, I think it would be naive to assume that both solutions win't be needed, and, especially if a Collis rebuild will take some years to deliver.

Collis emailed the parents a couple of days ago to say the funding they got is for rebuilding the infants building (which will take several years to complete), and that the local authority has not made a decision on expansion to 4-form yet.

News on the Kunskappsskolan or Learning Trust chain -their Ipswich Academy now officially in special measures. The local MP is demanding a change of sponsor within a week.

Was going to add that the governors and chief executive have come in for particular criticism. The school had been in special measures previously but was improving and there had been a lot of opposition to academy conversion.