The Vineyard vs Marshgate School

[clemmy77]

Hello! I urgently need some local opinions on the above schools. We have had an offer accepted on a property right next to The Vineyard but unfortunately, they cannot offer us any tour until September.

How do the schools compare and what is the word on the street? Marshgate seems to perform better on the League Tables but The Vineyard just has such a beautiful setting and feels friendlier. I read on another thread that The Vineyard does not get as much homework. Not sure if that is a positive or a negative.

Is there a strong community spirit at these schools?

Does anybody know about either school's SEN provision and can anybody kindly share their experiences with these schools (good or bad)?

Any pearls of wisdom very appreciated!

I need to respond to the estate agent today or the property will go back on the market. We need to make a decision either way as our second baby is due in early September and need to make our move now!

Many many thanks!

They're both good! You'd be very lucky to get a place at either of them. Both have very committed teachers, leadership and PTAs.

Both do really well on results - Vineyard came top in the borough for percentage achieving level 5/6 SATS last year (and top in the country for level 6), while Marshgate qualified for the Mayor's Gold Club - judged on 2012 SATs - based on progress and level 4 results, including those on pupil premium. But rankings can change from year to year depending on intake so SATs results don't tell the whole story. Both are inclusive schools with good SEN provision.

You probably wouldn't be in the catchment of Marshgate if you are right next the Vineyard.

There were families in the Alberts who didn't get a place at Marshgate this year. Lots of siblings.

I think most people who have a genuine choice go for the Vineyard but personally I think it's due to it's fab location. Who wouldn't want their kids hanging out at the terrace gardens after school? If you want to search the vibe maybe head there after school.

Marshgate had something like 38% EAL too that put me off. I thought it too transitional and didn't want my DD making lots of friends and them leaving shortly. It must present communication challenges for the teachers although their results are clearly fantastic in the end.

A lot of people close to Marshgate are also going for Holy Trinity. Everyone is talking about the nurturing atmosphere and less pressure than Marshgate. Plus grounds are bigger and more grass based! The HT at Marshgate even spoke about the level of tutoring that goes on among her kids.

'Marshgate had something like 38% EAL'

But DonsDrapers, so has St Elizabeth's and the Vineyard too. All of these schools in Richmond benefit from the number of children with highly educated parents from overseas who choose Richmond specifically for the schools. Sometimes they only intend to stay a couple of years, sometimes they change their whole plans and live their forever after finding out what a great area it is. It is an enriching experience for the schools and the children are either bilingual or learn extremely quickly.

And the main thing is the state schools have a consistently high standard, often sending more children to Tiffin and selective independent schools than the local private prep schools do.

Thank you all very much for the very helpful insights so far! Fingers crossed we will be lucky enough to eventually get a place at The Vineyard. I will definitely investigate the after-school vibe once we're settled in the area. Looking forward to it!

Lets be honest here, the Vineyard is a preferred school because it is 90% white students, whereas Marshgate has a more mixed intake. In terms of academics, both schools gain similar results. Vineyard, St Elizabeth's and Marshgate ALL have highly educated parents offspring attending many from overseas.... lets be honest Richmond families (young not elderly who bought yonks ago before inflated house prices) how many are actually English families, not many. My opinion would be to think about where you would want your children to end up for secondary, compare which schools consistently (5,6,7, year trend) "sends" pupils to that school (as this combats that entry is only down to excessive tutoring) and make your choice from that, as well as thinking where would your child be happy. Vineyard school is often chosen ahead of Marshgate for superficial reasons, location, near Terrace Gardens, harldy any black or asian children. But not all kids are from super large houses on the Hill. Many live in tiny basement flats and social housing ( lots on the Hill, council and charity cheaper rentals scattered around, think RBL) etc. St Elizabeth school, just throwing that into the mix, at least in the earlier years YR-Y3 are chilldren from families where EAL as most English families do not go to Catholic Church. What I hate is the notion that EAL children will bring the level of learning down for "English speaking" children. But my experience of both schools, children who have EAL come fom wealth highly educated ( not just bachelors degrees but Masters and PHD's) parents who speak fluently at least 2-3 European languages. Come on to get these internation postings, you have to be the best of the best and are usually working in better jobs and companies that the English cohort parents. Matter of fact!! If you have choice of both schools, go with the one you think your child will thrive. Though this is subjective; we never really know a school until OUR child attends, other peoples experiences are just that.

Mum...

And the main thing is the state schools have a consistently high standard, often sending more children to Tiffin and selective independent schools than the local private prep schools do.

Disagree, yes pupils who have been tutored to the hilt do attend the Tiffins, but they are usually the brightest students from the state schools. Private schools ( my eldest is at private) some are non selective, and most parents if sending kids to private school for reception (Richmond/Twickenham.West London Preps) are not really thinking about the Tiffins schools for secondary. Having checked the last few years leavers destinations for the Vineyard, it less than 7% of boys and girls that get into Tiffins and Good Independent schools out of a average yearly cohort of 58 per year. Majority of Children from Vineyard go to Christs, Waldergrave, Grey Court and Orleans. Whereas the local Independents, Old Vicarage, Kings House, Ibstock Place, Colet Court, The Mall, Newlands, Kew College, Unicorn, Falcons, ( St Catherines, Radnor House & Surbiton High - children stay on) consistently send more than 90% of thier pupils to the top London Day Schools and Boarding and International Schools.

Tallandgracefulmum every year group is different but about two years ago there were about 6 from Vineyard offered places at Tiffin and 6 at Marshgate, plus at least the same number again getting into selective independents like Kingston Grammar or LEH - so more like 20-25% (see Marshgate 2012 and 2013). Some then look at private schools because they were disappointed with their offer. The rest - and the majority - don't enter for selective exams because the comprehensive options have improved a lot recently, and their parents either can't afford private or actively choose comprehensive and/or co-ed schools because that is where their friends are going. Christ's is the closest school for Marshgate and Sheen Mount, but those from Vineyard living nearer Grey Court are opting for that school for co-ed, or Waldegrave.

I also know a lot of prep school pupils who were 'tutored to the hilt' for selective secondaries - not all successfully - but I don't blame anyone for that.

I wouldn't put 45% getting level 6 Maths in SATs at Vineyard last year all down to tutoring, either, but I'd imagine the teaching must be quite good. As you correctly point out, Tall, some pupils live in flats and even social housing rather than big houses.

'whereas the local Independents ... consistently send more than 90% of thier pupils to the top London Day Schools and Boarding and International Schools.'

Pupils at Old Vicarage do apply to Tiffin according to this newsletter and here. Those at private schools tend sit multiple tests and get multiple offers - about half at that school were initially successful in getting into Surbiton High this year, if that is among the 'top London day schools' you mean. The Mall school reports that about 70% get places at selective boys' private schools.

My point was that a much smaller percentage of Vineyard/Marshgate pupils are applying for selective schools - although I would dispute that only the brightest apply - but it may be the case that a higher proportion of that group (half to two-thirds?) are successful.