Richmond Borough Schools Chat 5

[BayJay2]

Welcome! This is the latest in a series of threads about Richmond schools, which was first triggered by the council's publication of its Education White Paper in February 2011.

Please do join in the chat. There’s a bunch of us who’ve been following the thread for a long time, and we sometimes get a bit forensic, but new contributions are always welcome, and if it’s something that’s been covered before we can always direct you to that part of the thread.

We generally talk about local education policy, the impact of national policy, the performance of the borough’s schools, and admissions-related issues. We began by talking about Secondaries, but tend to talk a lot about primaries too, so the title of the thread has evolved this time to take that into account.

If you have a few hours to spare and want to catch up on 2 years of local education history, then below are the links to the old threads. We have to keep starting new threads because each only hold 1000 posts. The first two threads run in parallel, as one was started on the national Mumsnet site, and another on the local one:

1a) New Secondaries for Richmond Borough?: Mumsnet Secondary Education (Feb 2011 – Nov 2011)
1b) New Secondary schools for Richmond!: Mumsnet Local (Feb 2011 – Nov 2011)

1. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2: Mumsnet Local (Nov 2011 – May 2012)

1. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 3: Mumsnet Local (May 2012 – Nov 2012)

1. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 4: Mumsnet Local (Nov 2012 – Oct 2013)

1. This thread: Richmond Borough Schools Chat 5: Mumsnet Local (Oct 2013 - ????)

Finally, to find out how to add links, as well as smilies and emphasis, see these Mumsnet guidelines.

Back to Richmond College, I agree with LProsser - we need to support it to reconfigure appropriately to meet the Borough's changing needs. The REEC consortium have consulted with the various funding agencies, so presumably are moving forward in an optimum way to secure the funding they need. Like I said before, they can't guarantee anything, but strong parental support is vital for any free school bid to be approved, so spreading doubt won't help them to achieve their goals.

I hope the current plans are successful, however if not then one option that was mentioned on this thread many moons ago, and which I don't think has been explored at all, would be for the college to capitalise on its position as a borough-wide resource for vocational training and reconfigure as a 14-18 UTC.

The UTC model currently seems to be well supported financially by the Government, and has many advocates from an educational perspective. Of course, as we don't have a tertiary system, it would be a radical shift that would cause a new layer of headaches for school place planning, but it also might free up space at the existing secondaries for expansion at Key Stage 3.

Thanks for referring me to that brochure about 6th Forms Bay Jay - it did look familiar but I don't think I read it properly as my dd is a couple of years off having to apply. It confirms that Richmond College is still intending to offer a very full programme of A-levels and the I Bacc. as well as vocational courses. The schools only seem to be offering a nominal couple of vocational courses each although they have tried to make it look better by including GCSE English and Maths resits in the vocational section!

A 14-18 UTC sounds a great idea but would presumably need more space on that soon to be rather overcrowded Egerton Road site! Presumably the idea would be that a % of students from each secondary school would transfer there after year 9?

Shame about RACC - it used to be really good although most of my happy memories are of Clifden and the lovely grounds and canteen coffee breaks (sob) rather than the teaching!

I think you are right BayJay that this free school is vital both for 11-16 places and to sustain the future of the college, so that there is a good mixture of both academic and vocational courses. And I do think we need Turing House too.

I'm not sure about it being a 14-18 UTC for all the reasons you mention but I also wonder if such schools have not been as popular as expected, perhaps for the very reason technical grammar schools never got off the ground in the 'tertiary' system in the 1950s/1960s.

"Presumably the idea would be that a % of students from each secondary school would transfer there after year 9?"

Yes, but there's a big sticking point. It would seem unreasonable to me to define the percentage upfront. Assuming nobody would want to see students being channeled one way or the other against their will there'd have to be enough slack (i.e. surplus places) in the system to give them a free choice, and to cater for variations and trends from year to year. But slack doesn't sit well with the financial efficiency agenda.

It would be interesting to look at how it's done in other areas with UTCs.

"I also wonder if such schools have not been as popular as expected"

I haven't seen any figures on that yet, have you? They do seem worthy, and well supported (by educationalists) but experimental, and it might be a while before their success can be judged.

I suppose the schools must already have some idea of the % of students that generally go on to do A-levels and the % that go on to do vocational courses so it could be planned reasonably accurately but, as you say, "slack" is not where LB Richmond is at generally! I am interested to know whether LB Richmond students will still be able to go to Esher in the future and how that effects things - the majority from Teddington School seem to have gone there at 16 rather than to Richmond in recent years. A lot of local students also seem to go to Strodes in Egham. Presumably these colleges are separate from the local authorities where they are located so they will continue to allocate places on an academic and/or ballot basis rather than by distance? (I'm not very clear what the entry requirements are other than GCSEs but Esher seems to be oversubscribed and use a random lottery system for some places).

"I suppose the schools must already have some idea of the % of students that generally go on to do A-levels and the % that go on to do vocational courses so it could be planned reasonably accurately"

Yes, there must presumably be an established/emerging way of doing it in other LAs that have UTCs. However, Sixth Forms are allowed to select based on attainment, so there is a harsh-but-true barrier to entry for some students. I haven't looked into it, but I don't think there is an established or allowable way of streaming children into different school types at the end of KS3, so it would have to be entirely voluntary. UTCs are intended to be an attractive, rigorous, practical route to University courses as well as employment (hence the 'U' in the name, and the strong university links) so if they're done properly they should naturally attract a lot of students. The potential fly in the ointment is the British culture of seeing a practical focus as second best to pure academia - but that's something we need to get over if we want the economy to thrive.

"I am interested to know whether LB Richmond students will still be able to go to Esher "

Esher and Strodes both issued strong responses to Richmond's Sixth Form Consultation, expressing concern that they would lose strudents, so I don't think there will be any barriers put in place on their part. The consultation responses no longer seem to be online but there is a flavour of Esher's reaction here.

They are very new, you are right. Article here - there is one in Hillingdon to support aviation engineering. But as you suggest yourself, until/unless the curriculum changes generally - away from the obsession with testing at 16 and GCSEs being tinkered with ad infinitum - it might be considered a 'non-academic' route, one that might be a risk if taken too early. I don't see much enthusiasm from Gove, who is micro-managing to the level of what set texts pupil study for English Literature, possibly because they have been championed by Lord Baker who brought in the GCSEs it has been Gove's mission to denigrate.

Which it certainly a pity, because we need engineers, electricians, construction experts, surveyors, computer specialists, etc. etc.

"it might be considered a 'non-academic' route, one that might be a risk if taken too early"

The whole UTC concept is based on the idea that 11 is too early, 16 is too late, and 14 is the perfect age. Although most parents won't have read the book, so it's a leap into the unknown.

Actually, I think the proposed 11-16 school may need to present itself carefully to avoid being wrongly painted that way too. Hopefully people have enough awareness of the full breadth of courses that the college offers, but I can see it might be confusing for families who are attracted by the new sixth-form developments at the other schools. The strong demonstration of parental support needed for the free school approval process will be a measure of how people are perceiving it.

Yes, I do see that. All political parties and parents need to support this. And if Richmond College has the prospect of more pupils in the sixth form, whether for vocational courses or the traditional A-level or IB route, then that should still make this an attractive, fully comprehensive school option. They could have brilliant facilities by pooling resources. Not all pupils will want to stay at the same school to carry on with their academic studies.

Bayjay2 thank you for the links, really helpful!

I'm not very hopeful that RUTC will continue to provide a good mix of academic and vocational courses despite assurances. DS is doing the IB there, a great course refreshingly free from government interference but staff say they have only managed to secure funding for the next year or so and are not confident the course will continue long term. Most of his peers did choose Esher and Strode's and I believe current Y11s are still choosing these over their sixth forms. Both these colleges are desperate to retain Richmond borough students so I can't imagine the admission criteria will change. Esher does have a ballot but have only heard of 2 students from pan school year group not getting in last year so seems an option for most. Anectodally the new sixth forms are popular with local independent and faith school kids.

That's not good news about the IB Twix 45. I am not aware of whether it is available at Esher or anywhere else in the state system. Several of my friends children have done it at Richmond.

I am wondering whether they will allow students to hold two offers in the future ie. one from a college and one from a school sixth form or if they will start cracking down on that aswell if it all goes pear shaped this Autumn and not enough go to the school sixth forms. Can they control this if the colleges are not run by LB Richmond though? I really can't imagine how they are able to work out which teachers to employ in the schools without knowing who is going to turn up to do what subject. Nearly everyone in year 11 that I know of still seems to be hedging their bets. This seems a much greater logistical problem than sticking a few more reception bulge classes in portacabins!

Good point LProsser, I don't know how it will work with the sixth forms but it's true that final decisions about places were only made at enrolment stage at the end of August, and even then I know of a few cases of people having to change their subjects at last minute as course over or under subscribed, it all sounds like a logistical nightmare!

No other local state colleges offer the IB so if RUTC discontinue local students will have to look much further, such a shame as could not recommend more. Apparently it costs more to run than A Levels so I guess it comes down to funds.

Youngest is in Y8 so will be a very different experience for him I expect, more choice of locations but less breadth it would seem, hope I am wrong...

LProsser: Who is the ‘They’ to whom you refer? My impression is that there is no They benignly overseeing the matching of students to courses and institutions as UCAS does at 18+. It’s a free market now which brings winners and losers and competition, for better or worse. So students will be able to hold several offers and game the system in any way they wish.

And equally institutions will be able to change their plans at short notice by canceling undersubscribed courses for example. There is now an over-provision of sixth-form places so there should be a place for everyone but not necessarily studying the course they wanted at the institution they intended.

The 2014 prospectus says ... "You can of course apply for your school and another college outside the borough if you want to, but do ensure that you are honest and open so that schools and colleges can personalise their offer for you and that you can get the best out of the process".

It doesn't say you can apply for your own sixth form as well as RUTC/RACC, although there seems to be a separate application process for each. It also doesn't say whether you can apply for a different sixth form to the school you attend (which must at least be relevant to the boys places at Waldegrave).

Perhaps more information is given at verbal briefings, and perhaps there is coordination behind the scenes. Whatever the process I expect it will take a little while to bed in, and will inevitably evolve with experience.

Twix45 I think you are right - there won't be a problem if you want to do Maths A-level but there will if you want to do the IB or a less popular A-level. I should think this will lead to more people trying to hold several offers as they will want to make sure the courses they want to take are running before committing to a particular institution.

Chris you are right - I started off that post thinking that some grown-ups somewhere in LB Richmond might be in overall charge but obviously not! However I think it's interesting that it says in the prospectus Bay-Jay quotes that "You can of course apply for your school and another college outside the borough if you want to" because that does imply that you can't apply to your (or someone else's) school and Richmond College even though the latter is presumably going to carry on offering more options for the time being so you might want it as a back up in case your school decides it can't offer Spanish A-level or whatever less popular subject you want to do.

This is a free market, which means that everything that is not forbidden is permitted, not that everything that is not permitted is forbidden.

So 'apply early, apply often' is best advice one can give.

This letter in today’s Guardian neatly sums up the faith school problem:

‘As recent events have shown and as the Ray Honeyford affair demonstrated 30 years ago, religion, politics, nationality and education constitute a dangerous and potent mix. There are no problem-free answers to how far schools should meet the aspirations of British parents who want a strong religious dimension in the education of their children.

The current status quo is unsustainable; it was a fudge concocted in 1944 to appease the established churches and is now long past its sell-by date. If it is retained in its current fragile state, there is no justification for obstructing those wishing to establish a large number of Islamic state schools; their fellow Anglican, Catholic or Jewish citizens have long since enjoyed that privilege. But therein lie dangers to social cohesion. The religious nettle is stinging and needs to be grasped.

But that requires political will which was lacking 70 years ago. Perhaps the findings of the Opinium poll in the Observer, reporting almost three-fifths of respondents against state funding of faith schools, will give politicians the mandate and the courage to consider overturning that 70-year-old settlement in favour of a secularised school system which promotes universal humanitarian values.’

Professor Colin Richards, Spark Bridge, Cumbria

Interesting piece from Sir Tim Brighouse, Schools Commissioner for London and former chief education officer of Birmingham:

'What is urgently needed ... is an end to the requirement to have a daily act of worship "wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character" in community (non-faith) schools and academies. ... It led the community quite naturally to think that religion, apart from the agreed syllabus, had legitimate wider influence on the curriculum. It does not.'

It looks like GEMS and Bellevue have had their primary free school proposal approved as well as the Richmond College Secondary School, though no sign of the bilingual school. www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/321364/List_of_open_free_schools_and_free_schools_opening_in_2014_and_beyond_up....xlsx

That will give some welcome relief to the school place planners locally. The announcement is a month late, so it would have been an anxious wait for news, and a big sigh of relief at the announcement I expect.

It's very good news for Richmond College.

Is there any sign of a site for these two primary schools in LB Richmond? I know there's no point in asking you if there's any progress with sites Bay Jay - I think you said October was the crucial date for Turing House?

Hi LP. The Turing House deferral announcement in March stated an intention to give parents clarity on site by October. Quoting from the website, the latest news is "May 21st 2014: Site talks have continued with Local Authority officers and the DfE/EFA in recent weeks. We expect to meet with elected members as soon as possible after the Local Elections – both main parties in the borough have expressed strong support for ensuring that the school opens in September 2015."

The thought of Gems opening up in the area is anything but welcome.