Richmond Borough Schools Chat 5

[BayJay2]

Welcome! This is the latest in a series of threads about Richmond schools, which was first triggered by the council's publication of its Education White Paper in February 2011.

Please do join in the chat. There’s a bunch of us who’ve been following the thread for a long time, and we sometimes get a bit forensic, but new contributions are always welcome, and if it’s something that’s been covered before we can always direct you to that part of the thread.

We generally talk about local education policy, the impact of national policy, the performance of the borough’s schools, and admissions-related issues. We began by talking about Secondaries, but tend to talk a lot about primaries too, so the title of the thread has evolved this time to take that into account.

If you have a few hours to spare and want to catch up on 2 years of local education history, then below are the links to the old threads. We have to keep starting new threads because each only hold 1000 posts. The first two threads run in parallel, as one was started on the national Mumsnet site, and another on the local one:

1a) New Secondaries for Richmond Borough?: Mumsnet Secondary Education (Feb 2011 – Nov 2011)
1b) New Secondary schools for Richmond!: Mumsnet Local (Feb 2011 – Nov 2011)

1. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2: Mumsnet Local (Nov 2011 – May 2012)

1. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 3: Mumsnet Local (May 2012 – Nov 2012)

1. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 4: Mumsnet Local (Nov 2012 – Oct 2013)

1. This thread: Richmond Borough Schools Chat 5: Mumsnet Local (Oct 2013 - ????)

Finally, to find out how to add links, as well as smilies and emphasis, see these Mumsnet guidelines.

And I know for certain that extra places at Sheen Mount will translate into places freeing up on the waiting lists for private schools.

Quite Don. I had to go back to work to pay for it. Thanks LBRUT. Lots of those decisions go on. People remortgaging in order to pay fees for the time it takes for a waiting list place to come up, forgoing holidays etc. We moved as well so that our second daughter did get offered a state school place, but I got a bit of resentment from a parent at her nursery who did not get in and were a bit that I had another daughter at a private school. We left the country though so they got her place in the end. That's the messy reality of living here.........

Yes I can see that it gets messy and complicated. Well if we get no place it's more nursery for us whilst we wait. Did the council offer you an alternative place before you went private? Was it very far away?

Dons have you seen this report of refusals even of first preference offers? Queens and Archdeacon Cambridge had a high rate of places reoffered to those going private or moving out of the area. If Queens had been expanded and got all the cash for that it would not have been fair or best value to do that without it changing its admission policies which it has refused to do.

Sheen Mount had a much lower rate of refusal in comparison. The rules have changed so only good or outstanding schools can now expand (still the majority in the borough). It would also be interesting to know if the late announcement of capital funding by the government has anything to do with this delay in negotiating expansions with school governing bodies.

...reoffered as a result of refusals by ... I mean

Yes I got the impression at our visit that the Queens school preferred the status quo, even although it is being rebuilt I believe. You'd think it would be mutually beneficial for a church school to become a bigger force in the community.

The report is interesting. 119 going private though after offers are out though out of a total number if applications of 2384? Is that right? Doesn't seem like a lot if I have understood correctly. I wonder if that chart is inclusive of the 7% who got no offer in April I can't tell from the report. It would be interesting to see the data on that. I know the council say everyone gets placed eventually but it looks like parents are managing themselves off the lists.

It's a total of 313 refusals so of 2400 offers, that's 13%. The report makes it clear that not all parents inform the council when they are offered a private place. 93 were allocations and you can understand if parents are unhappy - but while you or I would fill up all six preferences (OK, maybe four I seem to remember ) and, however disappointed, would accept any state place on offer while keeping on waiting lists, half of all applicants for 2013 entry were only only prepared to put down up to three preferences (one in six only put one).

Put into context one in six first preference offers at Queens were declined, and it does seem to back up the argument that many applying to Queens also consider private.

Dons I think those figures depend on the parents telling the Council they have gone private so presumably some of those who disappear off the lists may have gone private or moved but not told the Council.

What I find interesting though is that the vast majority of people refusing school places either made the school first preference ( mainly for in demand / oversubscribed schools like Archdeacon and Queens but also Vineyard / St Osmunds, so presumably were already vacillating on a state / private/ whether to move decision) or were allocated the less popular schools they had not made a preference (and may well have started out allocated no place at all). So a pretty even split between those who were probably always likely to find an alternative, private or otherwise, tempting even if offered a popular school and those who may have felt forced into it by not being allocated a school / being allocated one they did not express a preference for.

Isn't Queen's highly selective on faith criteria. Are these parents who sat in a pew to get the places and then changed their minds, not of course to deny some parents do sit in pews out of belief, but still?

Out of interest, what happened at Darrell, it used to be such a popular school? A mixed catchment compared to Sheen Mount and Queens but still we got squeezed out of a place, we were in Mortlake (there was no Riverside School then), by all those applying from the affluent Kew / Richmond roads? It had a really charismatic Head and a real buzz about it, lots of exciting and inspiring teaching going on, lots of happy children.

mum I assume most parents will be looking for some alternative if they have no offer of a school place or only at a school that is so inaccessible that it would affect the quality of family life getting there and back, as I gather is the case with an offer of a place at Buckingham or Heathfield for Teddington and Twickenham parents? Places on waiting lists for nearer schools did not come up for some of those parents. Hence the number of refusals.

As Don pointed out it is very stressful for parent and child when faced with that, surprisingly so. The Council can reassure parents all they like that it will all work out in the end, the fact remains that for some parents it does not, even if they can bear to hang on in the hope it will. If you have a four year old child and you are faced with that stress, as highlighted by Councillor Morris, you really do look around for any course of action that will give you some certainty of a school place, even if it means compromising

I'd put councillor Morris in a special category of her own because of the court action and homes thing.

We have a borough of two halves, really. I have every sympathy for those in Twickenham/Teddington because there is such a predominance of church schools and the A316 carves up the area. In Richmond/Kew/East Sheen the London maps tell their own story of how many more traditionally go private. But there's also a lot of mobility, many ex pats, perhaps more diversity generally. Schools swing in and out of favour but Darell is rated 'good', has a good experienced head and 100% inclusive so is a more sensible option for expansion in Kew. Note that few offered first choice there actually declined it. They deserve a lot more in their capital budgets than Queen's for their community mindedness, that's for sure.

Sorry Don didn't answer your question. We were initially advised that there was no place for our daughter, and neither of our appeals were successful. At the point the Council decided to put on a bulge class in a portacabin at Holy Trinity we had the private school place. There were still at that point 120 parents without places in Sheen and Mortlake and the Admissions Forum minutes actually stated that the reason for putting the class there, as opposed to Sheen Mount or East Sheen, was that it's older classes were only half full, so the additional numbers taken into the school would hopefully help in the long term to keep the numbers up in the older year groups rather than put pressure on the resources of the more popular schools, and that by putting it in a less popular school they could rely on being able to accommodate everyone since a good proportion of those offered places would not take them up We did go and look at Holy Trinity but the Headmaster at that time didn't impress, and indeed the other families in our road who did take places ended up leaving. I gather it is now much improved I should add. Then two weeks into term, with me back at work and my daughter settled we were offered a place at East Sheen We would obviously have leapt at that chance a few months earlier.

By the way mum totally agree that investment should be in schools with inclusive admissions.

Out of interest Heathclif were the LibDems in charge at the time? I don't vote Conservative but some LibDem decisions I find oddly unfair: not reforming the link policy when schools were oversubscribed and distance was applied anyway, investing in Teddington's school buildings when it was already popular but not Whitton's without the sponsored academy status attached, expanding St Mary & St Peter's without concessions on admissions policy, putting in bulge classes and 'shared forms of entry' which produce peculiar sibling bulges later on. The Conservatives have done things we can certainly criticise too. But pot and kettle, in my view.

I really don't remember to be honest, partly because I have never felt it mattered who was in power, I haven't noticed any substantive difference in the parent experience, or the steer given to the Education Officers, under either party's administration. I don't think there was ever a conspiracy, that would imply someone had been proactive whereas I think it has all been reactive and guided as bayjay said by the reducing the cost to the purse by minimising the risk of spare capacity. They may trade bow shots on who provided most bulge classes etc. but at the end of the day every year parents find themselves not offered a school place and feel forced to move or go private in numbers you don't see in many other places in the country.

Heathclif that is unbelievable what your family went through and so many others. It is so disheartening that the council's strategy has been so ineffective in meeting demand for this length of time. Come on council you are not herding cattle here. It seems apparent that they rely on parents solving their problems for them .

The GLA maps were interesting, although caused more stress once I saw that there are families schooling in Brentford (above the M4 not sure that it isn't actually further than Brentford) and in Barnes who live very closeby.

I don't think either party is better either from what I see. The problem seems to be lack of funding.

I do think though that partly parents have themselves to blame, there is no consistent pressure on the politicians to change. People with 3 and 4 and 10 and 11 year olds have these experiences, write to their Councillors, MPs, the press etc, make the difficult decisions and then move on. The thing about the Catholic Schools issue was that it did release a lot of latent dissatisfaction. I am sure Lord True never anticipated the strength of the reaction because education strategies do not normally provoke much reaction, it seemed as if they would be able to please some parents, without causing any fuss, beyond upsetting a few humanists. What they didn't anticipate was that they couldn't do that without reminding all those parents who felt their needs had not been met of how unfair it all was, hence the huge impetus behind RISC. They still tried to pass it off as a few upset humanists though

Yes but parents don't often realise the issue they face until it is almost too late to move or find money for private.

I believe this is partly due to the spin about the satisfaction in the press.

Parents of babies just see a swarm of closeby schools and can't believe they are not accessible as they are so close. I think there is also the 'couldn't possibly happen to us' mindset which is human nature a bit.

Maybe if we don't get a offer myself and my children will just camp out in the playground of our nearest one. I'll bring my ikea blackboard and some Sharpies to look like I mean business < off to ponder a career in pr...>

Dons - totally agree about the sickening congratulatory tone of the "9 out of 10 parents got exactly what they wanted and the rest got more or less what they wanted" press releases. Would be great to see some parents make a sustained protest rather than the stream of letters about little Johnny having to walk 1.5 hours to school past 80% of the other primary schools in the Borough that lead to you really wondering what happened to little Johnny next but you never actually hear (because presumably his parents decided to move to Godalming or send him to the Mall!)

Also agree Heathcliff about the reaction to the Catholic school "fiasco" (as I still think of it given all the knock on effects it is still having!). Noone is ever ever allowed to say to its supporters that it's been a fiasco for 90% of children - anyone who ever breathes such a thought is deemed a horrible atheist child hater.

But Mum - I must defend Lib Dems about rebuilding Teddington School - they had to prioritise it because it was a health and safety nightmare having nearly twice the number of students it was built for and bits falling off it. It was nothing to do with how attractive it was to parents. Whitton was just not as overcrowded and they did always intend to rebuild both - they were just not given the money to do so from Building Schools for the Future or whatever programme was going on at that time. It did cost a lot though which is why I always feel worried when I hear very low figures being quoted for school builds for free schools where the site has to be purchased too.

Teddington now has an attractive building. But capital funding is like a tap getting switched on and off. Darell expansion involves a mere £500,000 according to the link below. I tried to google the amount Richmond last received from the Targeted Basic Need programme and found this FOI request. So looks like they have £0 extra this year for mainstream provision.

I blame the government ...

"I blame the government ..."

For info, the shadow Education Secretary was on the Sunday Politics show yesterday setting out his stall for the next election.

That made me laugh Lottie, would also love to know what happened to little Johnny, bet he's trekki g to the Oratory rather than the short hop to St RR with the myriad of friends he has!

Have just caught up with last few posts and it makes me so angry that people still have all the stress of not having a place or knowing where they will go.

Secondary offer day usually coincides with my birthday so is particularly imprinted on my mind. Seven years ago DS was one of only 3 to 4 children in whole school not to get his link secondary, was very upset to see his friends all excitedly discussing their new school in the playground and there's nothing we could do about it except wait. It all worked out in the end and 5 very stressful weeks later he got in on the waiting list, but certainly something I never want to go through again. The youngest got in on sibling rule but some of his friends have only just got a place at their Y7 1st choice now in Y8 so were on the list for over a year.

It's a shame that so many parents lose interest once their situation is resolved, although I can understand why they may want to forget all about it, but for me it was important to join RISC, write to the paper etc to try and ensure this doesn't keep happening, sadly things seem worse and worse, at least in the West Twickenham area I am in.

Good luck to all those awaiting offers!

This morning’s Guardian has Four in five get first-choice secondary school on England's offer day: But rise in numbers applying in London and some other areas means thousands will miss out on all their named preferences.

. . In London last year, two out of every three families received their first choice, and this year promises to be no different. A spokesperson for London Councils, which represents London's local authorities, said: "London's education system has seen a significant rise in demand for school places, as pupil numbers have grown at a faster rate in the capital than any other region. Between the 2001 and 2011 census, the capital's school-age population grew by 107,000 – a growth rate of 8.2%, compared with 0.2% nationally."

In Hammersmith and Fulham last year, fewer than 57% of applicants received their first choice and nearly 12% got none of their six named preferences . .

Here’s a link to the March press release page for Richmond council. The link on the home page is to the February page.

I'm one of those parents dissapointed about what's happening re: faith school places in the borough. Moved to Teddington Jun 2012, got allocated a Sacred Heart reception place because of the bulge class they added that year. We're not Catholic and although the school gets good results and my daughter has settled and made good friends at school I still have a feeling of inadequacy... it is very Catholic with kids praying three times a day, weekly hymn practice, etc.

Two years later we're still on the wait list for Collis, going up and down as people move in and out of the borough (from 2nd place to 9th and back to 5th... we live 450m away from the school). I'm told we have good chances to get in at the start of year 3 but I won't believe it until I see it :)

We love the area and are happy withTeddington School as a choice for secondary and possibly Turing House depending on where it will have the permanent site... so I'm watching this thread with interest.

Twix little Johnny is a fictional 4 year old from an insufficiently religious family not an 11 year old Catholic! Actually he is based on a real life child that I read about last year in the RTT who lived somewhere near Twickenham Green. His father wrote in saying more or less what I've said, except I seem to remember that it involved his wife and a pushchair with a toddler in aswell. But we have not been updated as to whether she is still pushing the toddler for 6 hours a day. If what lightplay has experienced is being repeated all over the place there must be lots of children in schools quite some distance from their home or otherwise not entirely suitable but once they have been slotted in somewhere we don't hear about them again. There is no counterbalance to the myth that the Government is increasing choice for parents - repeated in the Fraser Nelson article from Telegraph that Mum posted on Friday.

Incidentally there's a particularly sick-making article in Telegraph today about how state school pupils have to stop wearing hoodies and learn to go to restaurants that don't have pictures of the food if they are to get on in life!

I think I am getting my sob stories from the RTT mixed up!