Richmond Borough Schools Chat 5

[BayJay2]

Welcome! This is the latest in a series of threads about Richmond schools, which was first triggered by the council's publication of its Education White Paper in February 2011.

Please do join in the chat. There’s a bunch of us who’ve been following the thread for a long time, and we sometimes get a bit forensic, but new contributions are always welcome, and if it’s something that’s been covered before we can always direct you to that part of the thread.

We generally talk about local education policy, the impact of national policy, the performance of the borough’s schools, and admissions-related issues. We began by talking about Secondaries, but tend to talk a lot about primaries too, so the title of the thread has evolved this time to take that into account.

If you have a few hours to spare and want to catch up on 2 years of local education history, then below are the links to the old threads. We have to keep starting new threads because each only hold 1000 posts. The first two threads run in parallel, as one was started on the national Mumsnet site, and another on the local one:

1a) New Secondaries for Richmond Borough?: Mumsnet Secondary Education (Feb 2011 – Nov 2011)
1b) New Secondary schools for Richmond!: Mumsnet Local (Feb 2011 – Nov 2011)

1. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2: Mumsnet Local (Nov 2011 – May 2012)

1. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 3: Mumsnet Local (May 2012 – Nov 2012)

1. New Secondary Schools for Richmond 4: Mumsnet Local (Nov 2012 – Oct 2013)

1. This thread: Richmond Borough Schools Chat 5: Mumsnet Local (Oct 2013 - ????)

Finally, to find out how to add links, as well as smilies and emphasis, see these Mumsnet guidelines.

"Are children who go to this school from LB Hounslow getting free transport?"

Hounslow seem to do this for low income families only. If a child is from a low income Sikh family, and it's the nearest Sikh school they were offered a place at, then it looks like they would be eligible for free travel (see para b at the top of page 5).

BayJay there does appear to be uncertainty over the policy by which Bucks County Council would fund school transport for Stoke Poges villagers - their nearest school would be within three miles if Khalsa were allowed to remain so they would be expected to go there and/or might not be funded to go elsewhere. See here.

I'm not surprised there is uncertainty, because the local policy is pretty complex and clearly in flux.

I find it interesting that the policy mostly uses the term "qualifying" schools rather than "suitable" schools. The elligibility criteria (page 5 in this doc) make it clear that religious preference won't be automatically considered, but elsewhere (page 15) it says that some Catholic primaries are eligible, presumably for historical reasons.

I'm not surprised local people are feeling anxious, but I'd say the council would be wide open to challenge if they tried to argue that the new free school was the nearest suitable school for non-sikhs.

In summary, it's another red herring - the policy certainly needs to be sorted out, but it shouldn't be used as an emotive argument for not siting the school there.

"it shouldn't be used as an emotive argument for not siting the school there."

Just qualifying that by saying the issue raised is certainly not a red herring in the debate about whether the Government should be increasing the numbers of faith schools generally; but if we are going to have more faith schools then the free transport policies will just have to evolve to cope with them.

Interesting times!

When we went to appeal for Darrell we were told that the fact that the only place offered was in a bulge class in a faith school and we did not want our child to attend a faith school was not grounds for appeal because they would teach the National Curriculum. Just about the only grounds for appeal that stood a chance were medical, that the parents couldn't manage the journey, amazing the number of walking sticks and neck braces in the waiting area!

It's an interesting issue. Presumably Sikh children have had to attend COfE or Catholic faith schools when there were no other places available. I can't see how you could justify having a different policy for Sikh schools?

I'd imagine that this policy could be really controversial once they start telling parents that their children have to go to a Muslim school in areas where Muslim free schools are opening. I suppose less of an issue in urban areas where there are more schools within walking distance but there are definitely places in Yorkshire and Lancashire where children travel by bus into towns and cities from surrounding villages for school so I assume the bus would only go to the nearest secondary school.

In the north in some towns there was a fair bit of self-segregation where some comprehensive schools were known to have 90%+ Muslim children. And so there was increasing self-segregation as other children either went private, looked towards a CofE school or moved to outside villages. Or working class families remained on their council estates where their schools became large white working class sponsored academies, continuing to underperform in a sort of island of deprivation.

However, that is NOT a reason to fix that segregation forever by replacing inclusive LA maintained community schools with faith schools. Faith schools can discriminate against even non-practising but cultural followers of that religion (e.g. Islam), mixed race families, Muslims attending mosques not favoured by a particular school and speaking a different language, etc. Who don't want religion to be a central focus in school, genders to be segregated in class, be compelled to go to prayer, be taught a creationist view.

And it is unfair on teaching staff who may suddenly be required to wear headscarves or change their dress, and even practise the religion in order to be principal. Actually, that applies to CofE free schools too which have advertised for principal positions requiring faith adherents.

Muminlondon, its not just CE free schools that restrict headship applicants in that way. Christs did the same.

mum Somewhat ironically some of those schools with 90% Muslim populations in Northern towns with large immigrant communities are actually Catholic Schools. They were established in inner city areas to serve previous waves of immigration from Ireland and Eastern Europe. Of course unlike here, they are not oversubscribed by people meeting the faith criteria who have tended to move further out and put their children into the non faith schools in leafier suburbs.

If the Catholic schools were 90% subscribed by Muslim children you can guarantee that the community schools have a similar proportion. It's actually easier to get into some Catholic schools where you just need a certificate of baptism or prove you are of another faith, than a CofE school where you need a reference attesting regular attendance. Baptism certificates on their own are rarely/never a criteria.

Just checked the census - there is actually only one Catholic and one CofE secondary north of Birmingham with a white population of less than 50% (the school census does not give religion) and none of them have more than one-third 'Asian' (Indian, Pakistani, Bagladeshi and other). Not convinced many Muslims or Sikh have been obliged to attend Christian schools at secondary level (primary, perhaps) due to lack of places generally.

None of the Sikh and Muslim secondaries have a single white pupil in them - no difference between voluntary aided schools and free schools there.

I'd guess Nishkam (Sikh) school, temporarily in Isleworth but which opened this year, is unlikely to have any non-Sikhs. There are about 300 vacancies in Hounslow for Y7 though, so it's unlikely anyone would be forced to go to faith secondary school contrary to their beliefs. I can't imagine that happening in Stoke Poges either - it would be a better justification for a judicial review than not getting a place near your second home!

I was (irresponsibly) regurgitating the 90% figure, and I wasn't implying that pupils were being given no alternative to Catholic Secondaries (in fact I understand that the religious ethos makes them more attractive to Muslim families than a school with no religious ethos so they are actually the schools of choice ). It is just that certainly in the Northern towns I know well, for historical reasons there are a lot of Catholic secondaries serving the areas with high immigrant populations that are considerably undersubscribed by Catholic pupils and therefore have space for the high concentrations of Muslim pupils who live in the area eg from one schools (requires improvement) OFSTED, " The proportion of students who are eligible for the pupil premium is broadly the same as schools nationally.
? The percentage of students for whom English is an additional language is higher than the national average.
? There are twice as many students from minority ethnic families compared to the average with the largest group being from Pakistani heritage. " That is typical for the inner city Catholic Schools, though the (good) community school nearby has a very small minority of white pupils. I was more interested in the contrast between that environment in terms of faith selection and our own.

However the fact remains that given that parents whether they are Muslim, Sikh or of other faiths or none have been expected to put up and shut up when offered no alternative but a Christian faith school I do not see how a Judicial Review can possibly exempt a Christian from a Muslim or Sikh school if there are not alternative places available. That situation is likely to arise eventually. I know the reality is that governing bodies may be more likely to try to influence their schools to implement religious and cultural practises that would be unacceptable to those of other religions but the D of E and Ofsted were unequivocal about the unacceptability of e.g gender segregation and forcing teachers to wear the veil in the case of the school in Derby. It rather goes to the heart of the reality of living in a multicultural society if it is OK to give parents no alternatives but a school where their children will sit through evangelical assemblies (as was the case at one point when Holy Trinity had a proselytising Head) or the Catholic mass on the basis that they have to meet basic standards about what and how they teach that mean there is no grounds for finding their faith character unacceptable but draw the line at giving white parents no alternative but to send their children to a school where they still have to meet those basic standards but will sit through a Muslim or Sikh assembly, even one that may well be focused on common moral and spiritual values shared by all religions? Plenty of Sikh and Muslim children have or may find themselves the only one in a faith school. Surely it would breach racial discrimination laws to make that distinction?

Yes, the 90% Muslim figure is also difficult to prove as there are no statistics, and there are only a handful of schools with more than 90% Asian. But one of them (a community school) is in an area I'm familiar with, where the Catholic and CofE schools are oversubscribed and comparably very white.

It is different at primary level but in a town, if there is only one Muslim in a CofE school they will have opted to go there. In a village there may be only one school. But generally in towns with large immigrant populations the Christian schools have modified their ethos, there are a number of families together in the school, and it is less likely that there would be evangelical assemblies.

This was a long time ago, but my mum actually appealed (successfully, presumably) for me to go to a non-faith primary on the grounds of belief (she said) and I had to take a school bus to get there. Ironically it was at a time when you didn't have the supposed 'choice' we have today, but I would defend that principle in any appeal.

muminlondon Well so would, and did I, and several others I know. I don't think it is right to give parents no other alternative but a place in a faith school, anymore than it is right that they select on faith criteria. However I can assure you that in LBRUT when appealing for a place in a non faith primary school it gets you precisely nowhere, and I am sure LBRUT would throw a lot of money at winning a judicial review because they would need to defend the flexibility to put bulge classers in faith schools and have the flexibility to put pupils in those faith schools that are still undersubscribed. They even put bulge classes in Catholic Schools knowing full well that parents will lose the benefit of sibling priority and may end up in different schools. With the pupil bulge coming through in London I suspect that is going to become an issue for Councils in Secondary Schools as well.

The important thing is that they expand and/or open a greater proportion of non-denominational schools than faith schools. For many like me, even "inclusive places" in a faith school are still not as good as a non-denominational (LA maintained) comprehensive school.

One of the arguments a Catholic school supporter used in that debate was that it was better to have a single Catholic school than two 'inclusive' faith academies that risk being undersubscribed, unsupported by Catholics and which might be seen as a poor choice for non-Catholics. It's a hypothetical situation (which we now know the Catholic Church wouldn't support). But there is, of course, no point at all in opening any faith school, whatever the admissions policy, that is not going to be fully subscribed. If there was any chance of forcing non-Sikhs into a Sikh school, the school should not have opened in the first place or should have reduced its admissions number.

It's even more unacceptable to close existing community schools to make way for faith schools. See latest news on Sulivan Primary in Hammersmith and Fulham although the faith school in question is CofE not Catholic as stated.

The GCSE performance tables have been published.

This map of Ebacc attainment illustrates that we are top non-grammar LA in the country on this measure. In fact the converter academies and Christ's have beaten nearly half the grammar schools in England, in terms of percentage of high attainers passing Ebacc, and getting good grades too (Hampton Academy has also done well well for this ability level).

Slightly under the radar (and overshadowed by the news about the GCSE performance tables), the fifth wave of free schools was also announced yesterday. None in Richmond though.

However, there are 3 proposal waves for 2015 opening, and this is just the first set of approvals, so there may still be some new places on the way.

The RTT has Darell Primary School, Richmond, expansion goes to consultation:

People are being asked for their views on the proposed expansion of Darell Primary School. Richmond Council wants to permanently expand the school from September to offer 60 children a place each year, compared with the current 43 pupils . . To view the proposals, visit Primary school expansions . To submit a response to the proposals email Matthew Paul, the council’s head of school commissioning at [email protected] by February 14.

St Catherine's seems very low on the results table, is there a reason for this? Great to see such good Ebacc results in our non selective schools!

Twix yes, it could be that St Catherine's entered half its pupils for the unregulated Cambridge International iGCSE in English Language. There were also AQA and WJEC certificates in English but pupils entered for English language GCSE without an entry in English literatures were disqualified too.

Schools were given a two-year period of grace by Ofqual to move over to regulated exams, but the independent schools were either not in the loop or refused to budge. It's controversial because some of these equivalent exams are considered 'way easier' but as independent schools are taking so many foreign pupils they need to keep their grades looking good. Curiously, St Paul's is affected by this too. See explanation here on p.3.

It would also be fair to say that St Catherine's is not a particularly (if at all) selective school and the parents who choose it do so because of it's ethos and small class sizes. I gather it does very well by it's bright pupils and is good at enabling pupils to achieve their individual potential but on the whole the bright girls who are successful in getting into more selective schools will tend to go there. It may not require it's pupils to choose the Ebacc subjects either, few private schools do.

Have a look at entries for English though - apparently only 54% were entered for the English GCSE. That's not normal - they must have had two sets and put them in for different exams.

This paper from Kings College may explain by Cambridge English iGCSE is not considered of an equivalent standard - because it includes a speaking and listening component and coursework that was dropped quickly last year as well as course work.

Yes Mum there is that technicality, I was just adding the extra context. I wouldn't expect St Cs to match say Waldegrave's results because it would be unlikely to have the same pupil profile, especially at the top end of the ability range.

I would say that regardless of exam board politics independent schools have opted for IGCSEs because a. the brand value (which may well be at odds with the reality) is that they are more challenging than the pre Gove GCSEs and b. Because they are on the face of it free from political interference. You might be interested in the comments made by the KGS Head (now sadly lured away to City of London School for Boys) www.kgs.org.uk/Mainfolder/pdfsanddocs/Headsletters/Autumn-2013/Week11Headslettertoparents.pdf Her comments on other educational developments in the letters with appropriate Headings are also very interesting. Good to have a Head being so open and prepared to share their views.

Certainly LEH got their toes badly burned when they switched to the English Lit IGCSE and their results deflated by 40% (but that was in the year of the English debacle and other schools were also reporting deflation in English and English Lit results including IGCSEs. )

To be honest I think what has gone on in the last couple of years has undermined all credibility in any form of GCSE (and Gove is probably only too happy with that)

Interestingly those who suffered in the 2012 deflation are currently getting their uni offers and it would seem that unis are ignoring poor English and English Lit GCSE results and even giving offers for students who have gone on to apply for English Lit, something Heads were concerned about. This applies even to the most selective unis like UCL who are said to attach a lot of importance to GCSE results. It is in any case a less competitive environment as a result of changes to student quotas etc but Heads are now advising that they know full well what has gone on. The problem is will employers be similarly aware when considering school leavers who suffered at the C/D boundary.

The Guardian has: Girls' schools lead GCSE league tables amid warnings of maths gender gap - Michael Gove praises teachers after fewer schools rated as failing, but OECD says UK girls three years behind best in maths

. . The results also revealed some good news for Gove's flagship free schools programme, with an unorthodox free school in west Lancashire achieving some outstanding GCSE results. The Maharishi Free School near Skelmersdale was fifth among non-selective state schools with 61% of its pupils gaining A* or A grades in art and design.Its curriculum includes three periods of meditation each day for pupils, which headteacher Derek Cassells said was part of the reason for the school's excellent results in art.

and Watford academy tops GCSE rankings of non-selective state schools (with the) largest proportions of A* or A grades in English, geography, art, maths and music.