New Secondary Schools for Richmond 3

[BayJay]

Hello and welcome to the Mumsnet thread about Richmond Borough Secondary Schools. The discussion started in February 2011 in two parallel locations here and here.

In November 2011 the most active of those two threads, in Mumsnet Local, reached 1000 messages (the maximum allowed) so we continued the conversation here.

Now its May 2012 and that thread has also filled up, so the conversation will continue here ......

The Turing school's reference point for measuring home-to-school distances is in Shaftesbury Way, off Wellesley Road, near the Prince of Wales pub and the Loch Fyne restaurant.

It is at the intersection of two lines joining the four mixed community schools on the Middlesex side of the Thames; the first line from Twickenham Academy to Teddington School, and the second line from Hampton Academy to Orleans Park.

It makes sense to choose a point like that - in the middle of what might otherwise be a 'black hole' for some (boys, mainly). A new school measuring admissions from this spot could address this imbalance (or ease the burden on neighbouring schools).

I've noticed that Richmond has published new 2012 allocation maps for Orleans Park, Teddington and Waldegrave. But of course for the mixed schools it was based on the link school policy and it could look a bit different in 2013.

And here are maps they have put up with the allocation projection without links: Orleans Park without links, Teddington without links.

They only cover first preference allocations and refusals whereas I thnk the 2011 maps were all offers, and first preference refusals. Would that make much difference? It might do for projected allocations now that links have gone.

Bayjay It all looks very exciting

muminlondon My first thoughts having previously looked closely at the 2011 allocations are

• Waldegraves catchment has shrunk again from Central Twickenham by 2 streets

• these distance maps contradict what Matthew Paul told St Mary's parents about the predicted catchment of Orleans ending at the Heath Road bridge, but then these maps don't of course take account of the parents who were deterred from applying because of the lack of links e.g from Vineyard to Orleans and from Ham and Central Kingston to Teddington. I seem to recall Matthew Paul was forecasting 15 additional applicants from Vineyard which would certainly shrink the catchment in the north and west

• an Orleans catchment ending at the Heath Road Bridge was the basis of the forecast that the number of out of borough Hounslow students getting into Orleans would drop to zero. These maps will encourage Hounslow applicants.

-I am not sure how the map would be affected by adding in those who made it another preference, that would depend on the patterns that result from the way in which parents tactically arrive at their preferences, now and in the, linkless, future.

• The Council do say on the admissions page that the maps don't take account of the number of parents who will be encouraged to apply by the removal of links but I do think that these maps, without some assessment of the impact of that, are going to be misleading for parents on the edges of the catchments. Given that they have put their forecasts into the public domain one way and another, why haven't they shared their projections openly? It just means parents without the will or skills to acccess that information are going to be at a disadvantage. Perhaps I am being unfair, my experience is that they will give you all the information and judgements they can when you are a parent asking the questions of them directly. Of course there would also be the risk that their projections become a self fulfilling prophecy with parents outside the Heath Road bridge projection not making the school first preference. On the face of it though it leaves a lot of parents with a high level of uncertainty on which to base an important decision.

Copthallresident, the admissions staff are giving talks in schools to Y6 parents in the coming weeks, so they may well draw attention to these maps. A lot of St Mary's parents objected to the dropping of the link school policy but, as you rightly point out, those near or in Hounslow around Isleworth still seem to have a chance. What surprises me is that the Orleans catchment could stretch as far as North Sheen so it is an option for children at Marshgate and St Elizabeth's, and also Darrell. On the other hand, both Christ's and Grey Court have beaten Orleans on 5A-C inc. Eng and Maths this year so there would be strong competition there (though the schools of course have different specialisms). Some Ham pupils could get into Teddington but some may also cross over from Teddington to Ham.

Mum in London - thanks for the interesting maps - we've been having fun playing "Name that Blob"! It does seem to show that, in the case of Teddington, at least 15 children were turned down this year that would have got in on distance next year. I am surprised that so many people put it as first choice when they had no hope of getting in as not in a linked school (perhaps thinking about the waiting list?), but this shows that there could be even more applicants next year who live nearby from Central Teddington, Ham and Kingston and they will get in shrinking the catchment area further away from Hampton Hill and Fulwell. I have only ever heard of one person going to Grey Court from Central Teddington but I suppose that could change once it is an option on distance for those near Teddington Lock. I do wonder what will happen in 5 years time when there will be 90 more children per year coming out of the various Teddington primaries.

Clifden Road site cost £ 8.45m www.richmond.gov.uk/home/council_government_and_democracy/council/civic-offices/departments/communications/press_office/press_releases/september_2012_press_release/clifden_site_sale.htm

Aren't those two maps ( links above) are very confusing because, surely lots of children who did not have a link to Orleans or Teddington would not have bothered list them as a preference?

But once we all know the links have gone, many more Richmond kids will apply to Orleans and similar to Teddington. Surely this will have the affect of shrinking the catchment areas to much tighter than the areas shown in these maps??
They seem ridiculously wide and could mislead a lot of parents.

Hi, I agree it is very limited data. Some children get into both the schools although their first choice is another school e.g. Waldegrave and this shows only first preferences. It might also be clearer if accompanied by data showing how many children got in on sibling rule and their location, and the primary schools they come from, as well as showing distance. For next few years I'm not sure, in the case of Teddington, that there will be masses of children in or near Teddington School who are not currently not able to go there as not in a linked school as all the closest state schools are linked and for many years not everyone in the linked schools has got a place so distance has been a criteria in reality. However once there are several extra classes worth of children coming through the closest primary schools in Teddington and Hampton Wick there will be a big contraction. Noone can get into those schools without living very close to them so they are almost bound to live closer to Teddington School than pupils at Stanley, Trafalgar etc. Presumably the same applies to Orleans.

Richmond children would not get into Teddington. Some Ham pupils might, but Ham primary schools are small.

BayJay - I am totally confused by the new schools admission policy and not sure how it will work in practice. Everything is based on site - till that is unknown, its all up in the air

Hi Jo, there's a simple introduction to the policy here.

In 2014 (first year of opening) nothing is based on the site. 100% of the admissions will be based on the admissions point.

In subsequent years (when the site is known) admissions will be split between the admissions point and the school site.

On catchment areas - Orleans Park's catchment area actually widened for 2012 allocations to 4034m (from 3239m in 2011). Teddington's shrank from 3646m to 3056m. The projections were probably based on 2012 allocations too.

That is reflected by trends in first choice application numbers so it will fluctuate.

The admissions criteria for Turing House are very ingenious. If it does end up at NPL, it may soon need to take children from the Stanley Road part of Teddington and not just children from Twickenham but it's a good way of ensuring that it provides places for those in the worst part of the black hole. I am interested to see what reaction the proposal if going to have in Teddington where many people have not really engaged with the whole secondary school crisis yet. There doesn't seem to have been any press coverage yet. Presumably if the Council is ordered to re-open bidding for the Clifden Road site it will be too soon for Turing House so only a Catholic Academy and the Maharishi will bid?

I find it profoundly depressing that now there is provision for Free Schools why sectarian schools cannot be required to go that route if there is demand, and any new LA schools be open to al faith and none , with no faith requirement.

"I find it profoundly depressing that now there is provision for Free Schools why sectarian schools cannot be required to go that route"

Well, they are MrsGuy. There are new CofE, Jewish, Greek Orthodox etc schools in the pipeline that are all using the Free School route. Since the new Education Act came into force on Feb 1st, (almost) all new schools have to be created through the Free School/Academy route, including community schools like Turing House. The LA is no longer allowed to create traditional community schools without first exhausting the academy option (so if Egerton Road proves to be a viable site for a school it will also need to be a Free School/Academy).

I put the "almost" in brackets because whether the locally proposed VA school is allowed to go ahead depends on the outcome of the Judicial Review, which is a national test case for the interpretation of the legislation.

This report from the Equality and Human Rights Commission has some interesting things to say about admissions discrimination.

Hi All - A local parent has kindly compiled this table by looking at secondary school web sites. Lot of people are finding it useful comparing these results.
Richmond Borough 2012 provisional GCSE results

However we have not been able to find the 5 GCSEs A-C inc English & Maths% for TA and HA. Does anyone know and help complete pls? *

5 GCSEs A*-C inc English & Maths% 2012(2011/2010/2009/2008)

Waldegrave 80% ( 87 88 80 76 )
Christ's 73% (70 64 63 54)
Grey Court 68% (67 54 46 51)
Orleans Park 64% (70 71 68 60)
Teddington 63% (72 69 63 68)
Richmond Park Academy 61% ( 43 )
Twickenham Academy * ( 49 )
Hampton Academy * ( 47 )

• not yet disclosed

Any 5 GCSEs A*-C 2012 (2011)

Waldegrave 95% (96%)
Christ's 93% (91%)
Grey Court 92% (85%)
Richmond Park Academy 91% (79%)
Teddington 87% (90%)
Twickenham Academy 82% (85%)
Hampton Academy 76% (69%)
Orleans Park 74% (74%)
Source:
2012 provisional results: schools' individual websites,
previous years' final results: DfE (NB for the three academies, predecessor school data not available)

Ofcourse will also be useful to compare results of our borough schools with the nearby secondaries in Hounslow, Hammersmith, Wandsworth & Kingston

Re the EHRC report: The section Admissions criteria based on religion or belief starts on p. 162 [true page no. 188] and runs to p. 167.

Richmond borough average is 84% 5 A-C grades (62% 5 A-C inc. Eng and Maths)

that compares with:

Hounslow borough average 88% 5 A-C (63% 5 A-C inc. Eng and Maths)
Wandsworth borough average 88% 5 A-C (61% 5 A-C inc. Eng and Maths)
Kingston borough average 90% 5 A-C (72% 5 A-C inc. Eng and Maths)
Hammersmith & Fulham isn't being specific

Some surrounding schools, e.g. 5 GCSEs inc. Eng&Maths

Elliott (now Ark Putney) 62%
Heathland 62%
Feltham 62%
Chiswick 61%
Brentford 58%

Interesting to compare the tables - ie those that include English and Maths and those that don't. As a parent , the first table would be of most interest to me

There is a bit of Hampton Academy news here (Twickenham Academy yet to update their blog) - results for 5 A-C inc. Eng & Maths not quite 50%, but they are appealing on some English results.

Worth pointing out HA's Ebacc score of 15% is close to Christ's (17%). Orleans Park announced 33% on that measure, Grey Court 30% (which was Teddington's score last year).