New Secondary Schools for Richmond 3

[BayJay]

Hello and welcome to the Mumsnet thread about Richmond Borough Secondary Schools. The discussion started in February 2011 in two parallel locations here and here.

In November 2011 the most active of those two threads, in Mumsnet Local, reached 1000 messages (the maximum allowed) so we continued the conversation here.

Now its May 2012 and that thread has also filled up, so the conversation will continue here ......

This is a misreading statement in the Councils minutes However, he did not agree with the arguments by those opposing faith schools in principle

As bloggers here know very well, the argument was not against faith schools, it was against exclusivity in the Catholic school proposals. It would be good if the Lib Dems could atleast get Democratic services to correct the minutes of the Cabinet meeting as it relates to the minutes of their leader.

On another note, we believe that the Council has updated the Scrutiny committee minutes, following many of us pointing out the factual inaccuracies and misleading statements. No-one was expecting a verbatim report, but some of the omissions are very significant.

We have also written to Cllr Evans ( who gave a very fair summary in his report to the Cabinet on what happened at the SC meeting). The Council seems to lack an appreciation of the importance of the meeting and the need to get the minutes right (though I would have thought that the presence of the Council?s Chief Executive and the its legal adviser would have given a clue). But I trust that, as Chair, Cllr Evans will want to ensure that those members of the public who made a contribution to the meeting will be able to read the final version of the minutes and feel that they fairly reflect what happened.

Lets see if the Council has finally got it right !

ChrisSquire Our RTT just got delivered and that implies (not that that necessarily means it's true!) they are basing it on the risk that Free Schools don't get delivered. Whitfield already has his slippery answer on that one prepared, arguing at the Cabinet meeting that he didn't need those extra places.

The Maharishi school seems to be coming in for some negative publicity. Interesting that it has around 700 prospective pupils signed up compared to 1300 for NFS4T

Why could Steve Knight not say this at the Council meeting or mention about the Lib Dem national policy of inclusiveness in faith schools ?

or even remind the council of the coalition agreement

The issue with free school is that it looks like (and I would want to be proved wrong) , those with power and influence stand a better chance.

"it looks like .... those with power and influence stand a better chance"

Based on what? Evidence or pure cynicism?

It depends on how you define power and influence I suppose. Free School proposing groups need to demonstrate .....

1. Suitability (i.e. not terrorists, creationists, racists etc etc)
2. Capacity (i.e. available time and effort)
3. Capability (i.e. knowledge, skills, experience)
4. Parental Support (i.e. be able to prove that the school will be popular with local parents, and be near full in the first couple of years of opening).

The free school programme has only been up and running a couple of years so its hard to judge who the winners and losers will be. Certainly existing education providers like the CofE will do well out of it, as well as other well organised groups who have been campaigning for their own schools for some time. The parent group behind the Bristol Free School had been campaigning for a local school for many years and so were ready to hit the ground running when the policy was put in place. You could argue that Toby Young's school was helped by him being a media celebrity, or, depending on your perspective, you could also argue that was a hindrance. I imagine his TV program and book would have inspired some groups and put others off the idea of free schools completely.

Parent groups obviously have a huge advantage in demonstrating the fourth criteria, parental support, which they can build up through local knowledge and personal networks. However, they can only do that if they have good communications strategies. The difficult thing for parent groups is to demonstrate Capacity and Capability. The parent group behind NLS4T have been very fortunate in being able to team up with RET for those things.

existing education providers like the CofE will do well out of it

This judicial review is really important in deciding whether a council can fund and encourage VA schools to be set up easily in addition to the free school route. Otherwise there are two routes for establishment and funding of faith schools and only one that seems to work for non-selective, inclusive non-faith schools.

I've been wondering also what happens when the demographic changes mean the faith of the school is no longer relevant to the community
like this example of a Catholic school with no Catholic pupils. (I think in that case the council has taken over as governors but I don't know if it owns the land.)

If the Richmond Catholic school is ultimately to help provide places for Polish children in Ealing in the future, what if that community changes or moves away?

Bayjay - as you say evidence is limited, but the proof will lie in the pudding. It would be interesting to see what happens in cases where there is parental demand equally strong in two proposals in same area. How is the DfE then going to decide if it can only support one of the proposals ? Evaluating the quality of the sponsors is subjective and that's where the impact of lobbying cannot be underestimated. The track record of the current Govt seems to suggest is favours mateocracy over meritocracy

What happens in the Hampton Church v Maharishi school case will give us some answers.

"How is the DfE then going to decide if it can only support one of the proposals ? Evaluating the quality of the sponsors is subjective."

Jeev yes, I agree this is a grey area at the moment. I suspect that as competition for free school funding increases, the DofE will find that the reasons it gives for funding one proposal over another will come under increased scrutiny. However, that will in turn force the selection process to become more transparent for subsequent years. These things tend to be iterative.

"The track record of the current Govt seems to suggest is favours mateocracy over meritocracy"
Based on what? Again, it depends on how you define mateocracy. You could argue that because the CofE/RET/Maharishi have all established schools in the past, they have the experience/track record/contacts/influence with the DofE that can help them prove their capability to establish schools in the future. Is that mateocracy or meritocracy?

The West London Free school started its life as a parent group but built up its proof of capacity by adding succesful former headteachers to its team. Is that mateocracy or meritocracy?

Its always going to be harder for completely new players to establish their reputation, as it is in any walk of life. Nobody is going to want to send their children to a new school that doesn't have experienced school providers on board.

"what happens when the demographic changes mean the faith of the school is no longer relevant to the community"

Muminlondon, yes, I agree that is also a grey area. As your example shows, the schools will ultimately change their administration, but the worrying thing is the amount of time that can take, and the awkward 'transition' period in between which could represent the entire secondary school career of several cohorts of children. Messy.

I would regard COFE and RET firmly in meritocracy but appreciate that lobbying is part and parcel . I have been sceptical of Maharishis as they do not have the same track record and boast a lot about DfE support . A weakness in evalaution is that it considers only those for and not those against .

In a competitive situations like in hampton and potentially now in kingston , a more balanced evaluation will be needed

"Maharishis ... boast a lot about DfE support"

Do they? Where? We did get some contributions on this thread from the Maharishi proposer back in December.

I remember reading somewhere that the DfE had encouraged them to apply for more free schools. However, I imagine that most of the existing free school providers were given similar encouragement.

If the Richmond Catholic school is ultimately to help provide places for Polish children in Ealing in the future, what if that community changes or moves away?

muminlondon the Richmond Catholic school is def not to provide places for the Polish children in Ealing but for the children of this borough. It is worth just listening to the cabinet meeting and what is said by Paul Barbour. He mentioned the huge increase in Ealing and surrounding boroughs(it has almost doubled in Ealing and 95% of this is in Catholic population) as an example of how difficult it is becoming for LBRUT Catholic children to obtain out of borough places when those boroughs themselves are becoming increasingly over stretched.

Mir4, there has been discussion about the number of Catholics in the diocese and I think official figures put it at about 10%. I've also looked at number of places at Catholic schools in surrounding boroughs as a proportion of total of state places provided from the 2011 census and whereas there is a higher figure in e.g. Hounslow (20%), Merton (20%), Kingston (15%), Hammersmith & Fulham and Kensington and Chelsea (small boroughs, and I can't remember exactly but more than 30%), from memory there's only one Catholic school in Ealing which provides 9% of all its state places. So some boroughs have surplus places, but Ealing may not stretch to all - indirectly if there is a shortage in the diocese as a whiole that's where it is.

There have been a debate about Richmond pupils, travelling time etc. but that is the wider picture in terms of capacity.

Bayjay As the RTT highlighted there is a Twitter campaign going on against the Maharishi school, and the ASA upheld complaints about the accuracy of some the statements on the Maharishi's websites. The campaign raises a number of issues including that the Maharishi quoted Lord Hill Undersecretary for Schools, as appearing to give wholehearted support to the bid, but say the quote is out of context. It's rather hard to get to the truth of it when their case is presented in 149 characters (or whatever it is, I don't tweet!) but on the face of it as a parent I would certainly want to investigate more closely before committing to sending my children to the school. You would hope the D of E will too, in deciding between them and the C of E, who are a bit more of a known quantity!

Mir 4 That is the overall issue for the diocese, that Paul Barber outlined. They need to free up spaces in out of borough schools to meet the needs of pupils in Ealing. If they did not have that need they'd be making the same noises about a new Catholic School being a threat to the viability of existing ones that we are hearing from Whitfield. There has always been an in borough demand for the excellent out of borough Catholic Schools, that is why Edward the Confessor closed, all my Catholic neighbours were sending their children to Sacred Heart and Oratory. Part of my objection to this school is I know full well they still will (since Barber hasn't succeeded in making Oratory use distance instead of their lottery of goodness and many people in borough will be closer to out of borough Catholic Schools than Clifden Road) whilst my neighbours, I am quite sure when you look into those forecasts, will not have a local option of state school unless NFS4T is approved.

Hi Copthall, yes, I've been reading that Twitter campaign this afternoon. I tried to look up the ASA judgement they mention but as it was resolved informally, rather than being a formal judgement, the details aren't published, and presumably the original advert has now been withdrawn.

One of the tweets that I did find interesting was about the fact that the Maharishi School had renamed its curriculum subject "Science of Creative Intelligence" to "Inter-disciplinary Studies". The name and content of that subject was one of the issues we covered here on the thread back in December/January, and it has recently been highlighted in the press as potentially in breach of the DfE's new Free School funding agreement, which outlaws the teaching of pseudoscientific theories.

"presumably the original advert has now been withdrawn"

But perhaps the Lord Hill quote was the same one as on the front page of their website....... "I am sure that the Maharishi Free School will improve choice and raise standards, and will become recognised as a flagship of the Free School Programme.?

Presumably he said that about the original Maharishi Free School. Reading between the lines, the advert that was criticised must have implied that it was referring to the proposed Richmond school.

Do Polish people tend to demand Catholic school places? Surely that isn't what they are used to in the state system in Poland!? Are they being told that now they are in West London they have to seek a segregated education for their children? Will Catholic children from Ealing be coming to Clifden Road and displacing little Jacob or whatever he was called? Having read Julian Clary's autobiography I know that, following primary school at Sacred Heart in Teddington, he went to a Benedictine monk Catholic secondary school in Ealing so presumably it's a two way street?!

From what I understand Poland doesn't have state faith schools. Although RE and assemblies etc. used to be banned under communism they have been encouraged in more recent years. - with hymns, nativity plays at Christmas, religious festivals, etc. and RE lessons, just like any community school. It is just assumed everyone is Catholic so there aren't any variations.

Below is the latest mailshot from NSN. They've sent out a couple of other similar ones in recent weeks, (though nothing for North Kingston or Egerton Road yet) ....

Dear [NSN Member],

The most recent Education Act requires that where a Local Authority identifies a need for a new school, it should ideally be a Free School or an Academy. This is a big change for how school places are provided across England and many Local Authorities will now be thinking about how to engage with Free School proposers and academy sponsors. NSN is keen to help to connect groups with interested Local Authorities.

We have been made aware of two [more] Local Authorities who are seeking proposals for new schools. These are:

Surrey
The proposal is for a new 1 FE 210-place primary school to serve the Horley housing development. The Council has secured a site and funding and it is proposed to open the new school from September 2014. Applications must be received by 4th July 2012. If you would like to express an interest in this opportunity please e-mail [etc ....]

Cambridge
The proposal is for a new 2 FE 420-place primary school to serve the Northern Gateway in Soham. The Council has secured a site and funding and it is proposed to open the first phase of the new school from September 2013. Phase 2 is dependent upon housing development and not expected to be required until 2016. Completed application forms must be submitted by 24 August 2012 and the process will conclude in the Autumn of this year. If you would like to express an interest in this opportunity please e-mail [etc ...].

We understand that these opportunities may not be appropriate for your group at this time, but we will be mailing out information concerning other Local Authorities seeking proposals as and when we are made aware of these.

Kind regards,

.... New Schools Network

There are certainly Polish families with children at my daughter's community primary school that seem quite happy with the wide approach - Divali, Ramadan, angels who dance to Robbie Williams in the Xmas Play etc!

Bay Jay - I notice that the bulletin you quote says "that where a Local Authority identifies a need for a new school, it should ideally be a Free School or an Academy" - so it's just "ideally"? Does the legislation say it has to see if anyone wants to open a free school first but it can open an academy or a normal school if it really can't get anyone else interested (presumably also if it pays for it itself!)? Does the local authority have any input into the type of free school that the Government advertises for proposals for eg. can it say it doesn't want a religious school if, as in the case of Kingston, the parents have already been consulted and asked for a non-denominational community school?

I notice that the bulletin you quote says "that where a Local Authority identifies a need for a new school, it should ideally be a Free School or an Academy" - so it's just "ideally"?

They're paraphrasing a complex bit of legislation. By "ideally" they mean that, legally, nothing else can be considered until that route has been exhausted.

Academies and Free Schools are effectively the same thing. Free Schools are just a type of Academy that has been set up by a charity, parent group etc rather than by one of the existing government-approved Academy Providers.

My reading of the legislation is that the order in which councils can consider different school types is ....

1. Academy/Free School, and if that doesn't work then a ....
2. Community School, and if that doesn't work then a ....
3. Voluntary Aided School

... but then I'm not a lawyer so I may have that wrong.

"Does the local authority have any input"?
They will be consulted, and their views taken into account, but its ultimately the Government's decision. I imagine it would be hard for Kingston to say an approved CofE free school couldn't have the North Kingston site if it was the only academy proposal on the table. There's still time for them to invite proposals for a community free school to compete with it though.

If you would like to express an interest in this opportunity...

BayJay, the logic of what NLS4T wants to achieve is entirely clear, being a parent-led group rooted in the community. I am more worried about the motivation of other groups, and how that can be assessed as if it's the same process, because their agenda is so different. They are providers looking for a group of children to educate, rather than the other way round, and they may have no ties to the community. If the Michaela school can be approved for Lambeth yet switch to Wandsworth then presumably the Maharishis could look at the North Kingston site if approved without the Richmond site - still a middle class outer London borough. But what say does the community have in what's being provided to them in their area?

"I am more worried about the motivation of other groups, and how that can be assessed as if it's the same process"
But they have to prove parental demand, so in theory schools should only be approved if they're popular with the local parents in their target community.

"If the Michaela school can be approved for Lambeth yet switch to Wandsworth then presumably the Maharishis could look at the North Kingston site if approved without the Richmond site"
I don't know if there are any geographical limits on switching site. When you apply you have to specify a Local Authority, so I'd assumed that gave some sort of limitation, but perhaps not if your example is correct (and I don't know the history of that case). Perhaps its decided on a case-by-case basis.