children in foreign language schools

[frazzlenz]

Hi there. I would like to hear from people who have gone through the language immersion process with children. We are coming to Brussels in June and my three children will be starting school in September. By that time they will be 4, 7 and 11. We are going to send them to local French speaking schools. The older 2 have just started French lessons and will be doing language/activities holidays programme for a few weeks over the summer holidays.

I'm not so worried about the 4 year old but I would like to hear from anyone who has put an older child into a foreign language school. So far most of the feedback I have had is along the lines that it won't work for the 11 year old and I am getting a bit anxious about what lies ahead. That said a couple of people have shared success stories, telling me that it will take him 6-12 months to start speaking and understanding French fluently. He is very academic and skipped a years school here in NZ so I am hopeful that will help. My 7 year old is doing well at school as well and is ahead in reading and maths.

Thanks

It will but it'll be tough. Use the summer to get as much French immersion as you can - a French speaking student or au pair to play with them too?

My DH went to a bilingual school at 12 never having studied English before and moved 3 years later to an English/Dutch bilingual school having never studied Dutch before. He's now trilingual and did his IB in English and his Bachelors in Dutch so it definitely can be done.

Tbh if you have to speak a language you do, the problems will be cultural rather than academic with the obvious exceptions of literature and history (the French do some maths differently to the English, not sure how Belgium compares to NZ) and possibly EFL grammar but if you need help with that give me a shout, that's my job . I would be concerned about homework, unless you speak fluent French and can help and another thing people underestimate is the difference in teaching style and the presentation of work which can hold up marks for longer than the language barrier. In a couple of years you'll be worried about keeping up their English!

Also 11 is quite an isolating age to move to a new country, let alone a new language, so you will need to make lots more effort than you think re: making friends. Proactively pickng up local trends is really important for this age - it will come more naturally to your younger 2. Tapping into the expat community there will be really helpful for this as there's bound to be at least 1 child a similar age who's gone or is going through the same experience. The 4 and 7 year olds are probably going to adapt better in terms of friendships but they'll have their own challenges such as understanding why they have to move/can't go home. It won't seem like such a 'huge' move to them though.

Note to self, preview.

It will work...

Thanks frakkinaround

Its good to hear someone say that it might be possible!

A quick question...are all the international schools extremely expensive? I have looked on the Internet and some are in excess of 20000 euro a year. On another forum someone mentioned that the Flemish schools offer special tutoring to bring children up to speed. Is this not available in any of the French schools? I just want to check that there I am not missing any info so... so its either immersion in a local French school or cough up the mega bucks for an international school??

I am planning to put the 11 year old into the summer language courses for most of the summer break summer and then have a tutor for him perhaps twice a week once school begins. I was hoping (perhaps naively) that this might provide him with just enough language to be able to understand a little of whats going on around him.

What is EFL grammar?
You mentioned that I shouldn't put him in if he's not proficient in English. Havign He has already skipped a year here in NZ he is still a full 3 years ahead of the syllabus in both English and Maths. I know being smart won't solve all the transition problems but I guess I am hoping he will pick things up a little faster than most children.

BTW, how much would an au pair cost? Maybe thats an option we could consider...
Did you mean a student on an exchange?

Some French schools will do 'adaptation' but most state scools won't. International schools vary in price and there are lots in Brussels but you're giving him a massive gift if you put him into a French speaking schools as he's still young enough to adapt with lots of support. My only experience of Brussels International schools is the International School of Brussels (ISB) which is lovely but expensive (approaching 29k for IB I think)! The other downside of state schooling is considering secondary education which I think specialises quite early in Belgium - the curriculum is only common for the first year and then it can be general, artistic, vocational or professional and schools might specialise in one of those streams. This is all based on hazy recollections of what Belgian friends have told me though and what I gleaned when I worked in Brussels. It does rather depend how long you plan to stay whether that will be a huge factor.

I'm always slightly sceptical about langauge 'courses' as I think children learn more from interacting naturally and spontaneously. When it's done well it's done really well and children will come back having absorbed the language whilst doing other things but I've also seen lesson plans for language summer camp and they struck ME as boring and I was going to be teaching them. A language course, however, will only do so much and the sooner your children start spending time with native speakers, preferably their own age, the better they'll get on. In Brussels it shouldn't be too hard to find a local student to come and speak French to them or a local au pair. Au pairs get around 70EUR a week pocket money and then you have to provide food and board. I was (naughtily) using the term very loosely to mean a teenager who will come and do a bit of childcare/French teaching in exchange for a room and some cash. In the true sense of the word it does mean a cultural exchange but then they're there to learn the language which they wouldn't get with you in an English speaking household and local young people aren't really there for the cultural exchange part. A tutor will almost certainly be necessary but they get a lot of homework too...maybe someone who can help with both homework and language?

"You mentioned that I shouldn't put him in if he's not proficient in English." Did I? I think what I was trying to say is being ahead in his own syllabus is great but they do things differently for some subjects. Or maybe it's the bit about in a few years you'll be worrying about keeping his English up? I say that because (not knowing how long you plan to stay) he will miss out on a lot of English lit and will be speaking English less so you will need to think about supplementing areas of his curriculum by suggesting English books to read, watching DVDs etc (soooo hard for an 11 year old ). If he's ahead a year where you are which year will he go into? If he remains a year ahead then he could 'double' easily, which means staying back a year and is very common.

EFL grammar is learning the grammar of English as a Foreign Language - it's cataloguing the prescriptive grammar he knows and uses on a regular basis. He'll be fine in english lessons at school as long as he knows what's being expected, which is often where native English speakers faced with English as a foreign langauge lessons fall down. They can't identify an irregular verb for example. I confess I don't know the NZ system at all though so you may have much better english grammar teaching!

Another thing to consider is that from the age of 6 French schools must teach Dutch as a foreign language (which will be doubly challenging as it's learnt through French). Are you going for a commune school or a public school? Commune schools used to start dutch in the last year of preschool which is worth bearing in mind for your youngest.

Having said allllll that I would put my DCs into a local school if they were sufficiently far off a critical point in their education (which I think 11 is) because even if they lose a year learning a language hopefully that will stay with them and languages are so important it's too good an opportunity to pass up really. I think forewarned is forearmed and if you are aware of all the possible issues (not saying they will all come up) and have strategies for dealing with them you won't be quite so flummoxed when/if they do happen.

I think that the French lycée in Brussels is a French-English bilingual school. And French schools abroad are much cheaper than IB or British schools.

My only concern would be how long you are planning to stay there. If it is a short time (eg 3 years), it may be worth considering an international school if you can afford it. Our dd went through the British system, she is now in the EYP of the IB and she will start again in a british curriculum school in August when we move. since we are planning to return to the UK in a couple of years time, it's important that she is familiar with what will happen there.

Hi frazzlenz! I hope you and your family enjoy your stay in Belgium. I think you are right to take the opportunity for your children to learn french. The international schools are very expensive and I have been in Belgium for 8 years and have yet to hear a good word spoken about any of the international schools here. I have heard of one french/english bilingual school where I really would never send my children.

Brussels Childbirth Trust is an organisation with many members and much information, including a Belgium Schools Network.

I think the 11 year old could find it hard. The other two should be ok. Friendships amongst dc at 11 involve quite a bit of linguisticcompetence, I can't help feeling he will be simply left out of things at that age since he cannot communicate with the others. When the dc are smaller, that matters less, kindergarten is obviously an ideal place to pick up a language.

When my dd began German school aged 5, there was a French boy in her class (aged 6) who had already had quite some schooling in France since they begin much earlier. He was a fluent reader and had already covered the maths obviously but didn't speak a word of German. He picked it up (not perfectly but so he could communicate) after a year. The school was only half days and in the afternoons his mother continued to teach him the French syllabus so he would not fall behind.

School was therefore not too stressful for him since he did not have to really understand what was being taught in that year IYSWIM. Your ds would have to understand the subject material and presumably encounter new maths, then there is the problem of making friends and feeling you fit in. It will not be easy for him I would tend towards an international school for him if you are staying there less than 2 years, despite the drawbacks those schools can have (fluctuation of staff, pupils, many pupils for whom English is not the mother tongue, etc).

Bilingual school would be better too, at least he could communicate with some of the dc and that would help him fit in, even if he acquired French slower that way.

sorry to blather on, just remembering the ds of a friend of mine was 11 when they moved to Germany and he went to a regular German school. He spoke Russian and English but no Gemran and it was very hard. He was bullied mercilessly for being Russian and was utterly miserable. A lot will depend on the school itself too. I don't know the Belgian system at all.

Just another thought, particularly for your 11-year-old. I'm not familiar with the Belgian system but suspect it is similar to the French one, which is very very very different to the NZ one (I'm a Kiwi living in Luxembourg after several years in France).
The French system is much less child-centred, much more focused on rote learning aand not making mistakes, and there is a much more hierarchical relationship between teachers and pupils. I do think it would be worth asking some of the people in Belgium about that aspect of it as it may come as a huge culture shock for you.

I absolutely agree with Weta, it sounds obvious but it wsn't to me at the time as I didn't really think of it beforehand but you do need to be clear in your mind that you are not just getting schooling in a different language but perhaps a totally different concept of school in terms of how teachers/teh school interact with parents, how teachers interact with pupils, how the work is taught, graded etc.

I met a couple (German/Brit) who had moved their ds aged 10 to Germany with practically no German. I asked them how he was getting on with the school and if they were happy with it. The mum was rolling her eyes at me and muttering : bloody hell under her breath. She thought it was awful - all the dictations, testing, the whole set-up really. The dad (German) thought it was great. He told me when ds was at school in the UK he got all As and Bs and the teachers would praise him for anything at all he got right. In Gemrany on the other hand, they were grading him low and he was being shown what he was getting wrong all the time. In fact they held him back a year because they felt he was getting too much wrong. The mum was unhappy about it but the dad said he finds that better because it forces dc to become more thorough and basically that it was hard on ds but was going to make him pull up his socks and learn the material for school thoroughly, whereas in the UK there was zero pressure.

It's not that one system/approach is necessarily more right than the other. I see both dp's point of view but you do need to expect some things to be very different. Maybe Belgo or one of the other MNers in Belgium could tell you more about what to expect there specifically and if the Flemish/French speaking schools differ much in approach.

I've linked this thread to the Belgian meet up so hopefully you'll get more advice.

I agree with Weta and ZZZen about the different approach. That's what I was angling at saying the problems are cultural rather than academic except things like history where your DC will have learnt NZ history not Belgian.

FWIW and from what I've seen the Belgian system is pretty similar to the French in terms of it's philosophy and that's wildly different from everything I know about the NZ system.

My DCs have all gone through the Belgian (French-speaking) system for most of their education. I don't have time at the moment to read all of the thread but will give you my take on the subject and hope it helps. I apologise beforehand if it appears slightly angry and hope that this doesn?t lead you to dismiss my opinion, but I have had to dedicate thousands of hours to helping my three DC through the system here (fortunately my French is good enough to have done so) and have found it all very frustrating. Children?s education is usually the topic of conversation amongst Belgians so it?s not only me being a ?foreigner?.

My DCs are not stupid by any stretch of the imagination but neither are they straight A students. They have struggled in a very learning by rote orientated system which gives a lot of homework. There are exams from the age of six (twice a year from the age of seven) and several tests every week. ALL of the tests and exams count to their end-of-year points and if they get under 60% they fail the year and have to do it again, even in primary. I totally agree with Weta and ZZZenAgain. It is a discouraging rather than encouraging system. If your answer to a question should err even slightly from the correct answer, it is likely to be marked wrong. There are different types of schools but as your 11 year old is bright, he will want to go to a normal academic school rather than the easier technical schools and even easier professional schools (for hairdressers, plumbers etc). In these academic schools (talking about secondary school here), Latin and ancient Greek are very much pushed (partly a snobby thing and partly because the Latin/ancient Greek streams get the best teachers) over English (if you did both Latin and ancient Greek in the boys? old school, there wasn?t enough room on the timetable for English at all!!) and there are rarely any creative subjects available (1 year of Art for one period a week, ½ a year of music for one period a week, ½ a year of technology for one period a week in the first two years of secondary school), meaning that the range of subjects available is limited. From what I can gather, the approach is continued at university level. Only about a third of first year students pass the first year. It seems normal here for students to retake several years of their bachelor and/or masters degree.

Unlike belgo, I have heard positive things about some of the international schools. Both my DSs completed their education (at great expense to us ) in the British School. It is far from perfect (it would appear to be difficult to get good quality teachers to come to Belgium) but both my DSs were much happier with the approach and the range of subjects available at the school. DS2, for example, was able to take maths, physics and design and technology at A level ? a combination impossible in the Belgian system. DS1 took the IB and took Art and DT along side more traditionally academic subjects ? again not available in the Belgian system. DS1 was also happier socially with the international community (about 70 different nationalities at the school) whilst DS2 preferred to continue to socialise with his Belgian friends.

I think how long you intend to be here is a very good point. If it?s only for a few years I would not advise putting your children into school in another language. Despite what you might hope, the chances of them being able to retain the language once they have left is slim unless you are able to keep the language ?alive? wherever you move to afterwards. It is (generally speaking) a myth that children pick up languages in a couple of months (although as your 11 year old is very academic this might not be the case). Think about what your 11 year old is doing at school in English at the moment. Think about how long it took him to get to that point in his English knowledge. If he can?t communicate with the others in the class, it will be more difficult for him to make friends. My DCs were all 3 when they started part-time in Kindergarten. At that age, children aren?t so bothered if they can?t understand/be understood ? they just get on and play.

Another point is that the French-speaking and Dutch-speaking systems are not identical. If I had my time again, I would put my children in a Dutch-speaking school. Dutch is grammatically much easier than French and much more similar in structure to English making it easier to learn to write. The Flemish (Dutch speakers) seem to be more relaxed than the French-speakers too (though the Latin/ancient Greek thing is still pushed with them too).

Anyway, I?ve rambled on for long enough. I do hope you find some of these points helpful. Ask away if you have other questions.

Hi frazzlenz, just my thoughts...

I am living in Germany and my 2 eldest dc are in local school. We moved to Germany 2 years ago, and the boys spent 1st year in International school, as we weren't sure if we would stay here.

We did used to live in Switzerland so the boys could speak some German.

Anyway, I was not at all impressed with the IS. In our experience, the standards were low and they didn't cater at all for the brighter kids. My dss, who are both v. good at maths were doing work easier than 1st class work in Switzerland. It was astonishing. Yes, the facilities were great, but that's where it ends imo. Plus, here anyway, most pupils at the IS lived scattered far and wide from the school, so there was v. little contact with kids after school or at the weekend. School holidays were v. lonely and difficult. And making friends with the local kids was nigh on impossible.

We decided to stay here, and moved our dc to the local school. In only a month they had improved a lot. It has been hard in some ways, but even the social side more than makes up for that (ds1 is 10 btw) They have friends calling round daily. You can't put a price on that.

I agree with the poster who says getting an au pair would be great if possible, but wouldn't rule out the language course completely.

Oh, and finally, I have a friend here who moved from the US with her 12 yr old dd. The girl didn't have a word of German. She started in the local grammar school. Her mum really worked hard at it - organising tutors, homework help, holiday courses etc as well as lots of social stuff (a baseball team which seems to take the entire family's spare time). She also had only German tv. And the girl herself, who is very bright, of course,had to work hard, but she did it, she has done really well, is fluent in German, is thriving, has lots of friends. She is a real example of how it can work (with commitment and hard work)

Imagine if you are staying long term in Belgium, and you decide out of worry to send ds1 to IS, but the other 2 to local school. Before long they will be fluent/bilingual. He won't be. WOuld he resent the gift of a second language that his 2 siblings have that he wouldn't? I suspect yes. Also, if you do decide to stay long term in Belgium, he won't be in a strong position. I know he's only 11 now, but give it a few years and he wants to leave cos he doesn't speak French, but everyone else does and wants to stay...?

After our experience in the IS, I'd say if you're only planning on 1 or 2 years maybe, but otherwise, grasp the nettle

My DC are both in foreign-language schools abroad (not Belgium, so no experience there, I'm afraid). I really think it can work, but will be tough on the two older DC, especially the 11-year-old.

So much depends on the school and the other students in the class - do your best to find a school you like and that you feel is a good fit for your DC, regardless of the language of instruction. Plenty of foreign kids are miserable in the international schools, and plenty happy in the local ones - it's not ALL about the language.

Do you speak French? Because every parent/teacher meeting, homework assignment, birthday party, school play, etc etc will be in French.

I totally agree with the poster who said that kids don't just 'pick up' languages, as so many people seem to tell me! You need to realise that all they will learn for a while is the foreign language, as other subjects will be largely unintelligible. So they'll be 'falling behind' in math, science, geography - everything really! - for a while.

You may well need to homeschool in English to a certain extent, and possibly in other subjects until your DC are up to speed in French.

I've been very pleased with our experience, and think it's been best for our kids. But I have had to be far more involved in their school lives than I would have been at an international school. Make sure you're open to lots of playdates and parties to help those little friendships blossom.

Good luck!

dunno about that, mumup - at our IS it was practically a full time job, even just keep up with the zillions of emails. Though never had to help them wth their work funnily enough

Wow, there is so much to consider and still no clear answer! Some say do it, some say its got to be the international schools. I thought I'd get a clear answer from you guys

Realistically I think the international schools are out of our league unless we can get the company to reconsider. Perhaps if things don't go well at a local school they will be willing to help a bit more.

It looks like we will be in Belgium 4 years, so I would prefer the children learned the local languages. I've heard good feedback about Ecole de Stockel along the lines that they are welcoming to non-French speakers and that there are lots of expats there. I thought this could be a good option as it would potentially provide English speaking friends as well as the opportunity to speak French. The boys play rugby so we would look at the English speaking rugby club we've been told about as well.

The schools seem to want to put him in yr5 which would give him 2 years to master the language before he had to pass exams for high school. Here in NZ we start school at 5 and as my eldest skipped a year he is now in yr 7. I'm hoping that this will mean that at least academically he won't fall behind while he is learning the language. Its hard to know how the NZ system stacks up against the Belgium one though.

Thanks to all those who replied

EarnestTheBavarian, I like your story in particular
It gives me hope that this is "doable". We will have the tutors, the language programmes in the holidays etc so I hope that will help.

Longtimeinbrussles, did you shift your children to the international school at high school level?
Did they make friends with local children while at primary?

DS1 was nearly 16 when we moved him and DS2 was 14. We moved DS1 because he became depressed in the Belgian system. We moved DS2 because for a while my DH considered moving to the UK. This all fell through (he tried it for a while but hated it) but by this time we'd already moved DS2. I do feel that DS2 could have coped with the Belgian system because he found primary the easiest of the three (but by no means easy) but he was much happier with the lighter workload (who wouldn't be?) and the greater variety of subjects. Until they moved, they only had Belgian friends. As I said in my last post, DS1 embraced all that came with being in an international school (friends of all nationalities which he loved) whilst DS2 continued (and still continues) to socialise only with his Belgian friends. (DS1 preferred reading in English whilst DS2 preferred reading in French!)

DD is in 5th year primary in the Belgian system and because of lack of cash, she will have to stay in that system. We recently had a friend's daughter stay with us (18 year old Swede) and she could not believe how much work my DD was getting. However, all three of mine have been a bit daydreamy and as I said they are not academically brilliant (though how much of that is due to studying in a language that isn't their mother tongue, I don't know) so maybe the work just takes them longer so the workload appears greater. Once he's mastered the language, your 11 year old may well whizz through it.

There are of course advantages to going to a local school though if the school is a good one you might not necessarily find friends who live in the neighbourhood. There isn't a catchment area issue here. At DDs school there are children from far and wide.

With regard to what they are doing at what level, my 10 year old DD has just had a homework where she had to analyse two sentences. She had to break them down into subject group, verbal group and circumstantial complements (don't know some of these terms in English so I'm just translating from French). Then she had to break the verbal group into verb, direct objects and indirect objects. Then she had to break the noun groups (usually the subject, direct object and indirect object) into main groups and noun complements. Then she had to say what the role of each of the words was in each group and give their grammatical . For example, here: "Les Romans ont attaqué le château féodal des Nerviens", "Les Romans" is the subject group with "Les" determining the noun "Romans" and being an definite article, "Romans" being the centre of the subject group and being a proper noun, the rest of the sentence is the verbal group with "ont attaqué" being the base and a verb conjugated in the present perfect, "le château féodal des Nerviens" being the direct object with "des Nerviens" being a noun complement of "le château féodal" and then "le" determining the noun château and being a definite article, "château" being the centre of the noun group and being a noun, "féodal" being the epithète of "château" and being a qualificiative adjective, "des" introducing the noun complement and being a contracted definite article determiner and "Nerviens" being the centre of the noun group and being a proper noun.

Are you sure you don't want to put her into the Flemish system? As a language it really is much, much simpler than French !

Sorry them, not her!

Another thing I wanted to say is that for language immersion I think it would be better to find a school where they aren't many English speakers so that they will be forced to speak the local language.

flipping heck at that French homework !

ZZZenAgain, that was just a short sentence I made up. DD's homework consisted on two sentences, both longer than the example I gave and included prepositions which introduce the group and other such things! I did French at uni and sometimes get confused with some of the French analysis she has to do.

Seems I omitted a word in my post before last. "and give their grammatical meaning" is what I meant to say.