Australia or Canada?

[TheYearOfTheCat]

If you had the choice between them, which one would you move to and why? (or why not?)

PMSL at TheYearOfTheCat putting mozzies on the cons list for Aus, vs Canada. There are, I think, around 75 species of mosquitoes in Canada and I don't know a single Brit who has emigrated here who doesn't rank "bugs" as one of the major downsides of living here. I have no experience of Australia, but cannot see mosquitoes in particular being that bad in many places in Australia as a lot of it has a much more arid climate than Canada.

I personally would rank Canada as mosquito capital of the developed world, but then I live rurally, surrounded by pine forest, so if you were to pick a city, they'd be far less of a nuisance.

With regards to the weather, I'm sure Aus., being so big, must be similar to Canada in as much as you can theoretically pick a location that suits your temperature preferences?

Canada is huge, and so you cannot generalise that Winters in Canada will be too cold. For example, while we in N.Eastern BC (in the Rockies) regularly experience -30C during the Winter, in S.Western BC (Vancouver area) the weather is just like the UK i.e. wet and mild. And that's just a cross-Province variation!

Admittedly most of Canada does have cold, snowy Winters, but I love it On a sunny -15/-20C day here, it actually feels warmer to me when out walking than it ever did during a damp/drizzly +5C day in NW England!

Am an Aussie. Lived in Canada for a year. Both have advantages.
One consideration not sure if I missed it but annual holidays in Canada were a lot less than Australia. Two weeks from what I remember? Who wants to work so hard for so little break?

Plus side to Canada would be more affordable housing?
Climates - a personal preference, obviously Canada is more extreme.

Heat and mozzies in oz are maneagable.

If you are close to your family and they all live in the UK, I would pick Canada.

Flights from Australia are a killer once you have DC. If you have 2 DC, you could easily be staring down the barrel of GBP5,000 worth of flights every time you want to see your family. And that's assuming you're happy to travel in an off-peak time. Once they hit school age and you have to travel at the same time as everyone else, it could easily be more.

If you go live in British Columbia the winters are very mild (note the Olympics and lack of snow, other places are brutally cold depending on how far north you live. The cost of living can be high, depends on where you live and what you do for employment. The winters are doable and people arrive here from places like Africa, have one hell of a shock for a season then adjust, learn to skate, ski and embrace the outdoor fun. The change of seasons is nice. Truthfully, if you are bundled up properly, you are fine and can out and about, even with small children.

Hi

Me, partner and our 2 children aged 4 (boy) and 2 (girl) are moving to Adelaide at the end of August to Glenelg.
Anyone living there with same age kids want to meet up for coffee (me) and play (kids)
Its all especially tough on DS who will be leaving close friends behind and is really anxious!(confused) I would love for him to find a nice little friend so he can settle in quickly.:) xx

I would choose Canada for the education/health system, housing.

I have never been there though. Do know Australia, my sister is married to a True Blue and lives there.

I mostly agree with Spero. Certainly would not call any of Australian cities cosmopolitan & for evidence I would cite "Time Out", the listings magazine. In Sydney it comes out once a month & it is mostly about restaurants & cafes. In London it is the size of a small book & comes out weekly so "do the math". Also Sydney only has two weekend papers. There is less diversity cos of the small population in a very large country far from other countries which has not been populated for very long, even tho the population itself can be quite diverse in terms of ethnic make-up in some areas.
Have lived in Australia for 3 yrs, been on hol in Canada for 2 weeks so cannot compare but even on that hol I had the impression that Canada was quite twee & sterile. Also very difficult to say as different areas within each country will be very different to each other (such as Cornwall compared to Newcastle for eg). Still, nice to have the choice of moving to two of the most desirable Western countries!

oh I liked the sound of Canada but have never been there so really couldn't judge the place.

why is it twee?

The area of Canada I was in was South Alberta - absolutely gorgeous landscape. I have a godmother who lives there & I guess I am influenced by the circles she moves in. Things & events seemed to be just-so, very pleasant & genteel, people a bit like Stepford wives, people being very into having a certain way of life that was very wholesome, cleanliving, super sensitive to native american culture, women much more traditional so into crafts & baking (same as in Australia). There didn't seem to be any acknowledgment of crap negative stuff in life as everything was so marvellous living in the glorious country that yes, does have a lot of the benefits of the US & is next door but thank heavens it is not actually the US & they will do everything in their power to dis-associate themselves yet whilst taking advantage of all the perks they can. Difficult to explain & I am crap at explaining things in general so sorry if that does not make much sense!

Some of the expat online fora have sections for people wanting to return home so if you want negative vitriol about a particular country check them out. There seem to be a lot of returners from Canada & Australia. I guess these are the main popular ones Brits go to in the first place.

I live in canada and actually laughed when I read your description of twee and sterile. Canada is very large and I think if you tried Vancouver or Toronto you would have a different experience than small town Alberta. I do agree there is a smug quality about Canadians because life here is easy. But easy is not all bad, good health care, lots of jobs, good schools. People here are generally polite and welcoming. And our smugness drives the Americans crazy so it is fun to irritate them.

Forgot to add, I though your description of the stepford wives circle was spot on, reason I laughed. I make it a point to avoid them or would go mad. But there are other types here although you may have to search around a bit. FOrgot to mention Montreal which is our most european city and has the advantage of being a french speaking city if you are keen to learn french or raise bi-lingual kids ( a big asset here in Canada).

I would go for Canada - I have only been to Albert but thought it was wonderful. I would go for it because of the beauty of the Rockies and the sheer loveliness of the Canadians.

Never been to Ausralia but I have seen plenty of threads about plate-sized spiders scampering towards you so that would put me off. What are they called again?

But, in reality, I would move to neither. IMO the UK is great. Depends on what you are after, though.

Where do you get the idea that women in Canada and Australia are more "traditional" elvisgirl? Do you mean that more women in these countries are statistically SAHMs (i have no idea if that is true) or have you observed this yourself?

I ask because I don't see that from where I am standing so it is always interesting to understand how others see you/your country.

Getorf -I had one of those spiders jump on my head once when I was having a shower. I'm the official spider catcher in our home - my husband gets a bit faint when he sees one. Seriously, I find them in our house only once or twice a year - no sweat!

Hi smugaboo

Not elvisgirl, so hope you don't mind me butting in?

"Where do you get the idea that women in Canada and Australia are more "traditional" elvisgirl? Do you mean that more women in these countries are statistically SAHMs (i have no idea if that is true) or have you observed this yourself?

I ask because I don't see that from where I am standing so it is always interesting to understand how others see you/your country."

I think it all boils down to location.

I would agree with elvisgirl's observation with regards to many women round here too (I live in the BC Rockies) but I think that's solely because where I live is right out in the Boonies, and no-one in their right mind (no offence elvisgirl ) would assume that such a limited sample of the population means that every Canadian woman is like that...surely? I'm sure that they're actually no more traditional than women who live in correspondingly rural/insular communities in the UK.

Venture out of the stereotypical "Canadian small-town" (or in our case, small-village!) and into a city or suburb and I think that then there's really no difference in how women act, to back in the UK.

Where there is a difference...and I would expect that it's similar in Australia, but again, maybe that's just a stereotype...is that there seems to definitely be more chauvinism in Canada than in the UK, but that's gradually changing...

Well we moved to Canada and would not in any way wish to live in Australia. My sister moved to Australia last year and very much wants to go home, whereas we'd like to stay for good.

But both countries are huge and diverse, so I suspect it depends on what you want and where you are thinking of going. We visited Toronto and decided we really didn't want to live there at all (it was an option about three years ago) but love BC. It is a fantastically beautiful place and people are very laid back and friendly. Although I miss the buzz of London sometimes.

My sister lives in Melbourne (her dh is Australian and grew up there) and just finds it not a patch on London.

My understanding from her is that Australia is a bit chauvinist still (in a blokey sort of way). I've not found that here, despite being the earner whilst dh is a SAHD. People tend to live and let live here - too busy enjoying the great outdoors to care about anything much really (which is the only downside, there is really very very little political debate here).

Oh, and for mozzies why not visit Winnipeg (capital of Manitoba) boiling hot in summer with so many bugs you can't go out and freezing cold in winter - the far North is terrible for bugs too.

I lived in Australia for 2 years in the early 90's - when there was no internet! So snail mail & v. expensive phonecalls made connecting back to UK difficult, and sometimes increased the sense of 'isolation'.

I lived in Parramatta - which I guess must now be the geographical centre of Sydney as there has been so much urban sprawl out to the West.....

To be blunt, it all depends on your ages/circumstances. I was single, 26, made lots of friends ..... some of whom promptly married Poms or Yanks then buggered off!

Those who were married were a bit 'Stepford' with lots of baking & taking said baking to friends BBQ's (where they would BBQ nasty sausages called 'Snags' but the rest of the meat was way superior and cheaper than anything you'd get here! I had fillet steak for the 1st month - early Atkins LOL!).

But back to the script - you have to make the effort to make friends with the locals to get off the 'tourist trails'. That was the best thing I ever did, 'cos then you really get to see Australia properly. And stop comparing prices to UK and live in the $ not the £.

You have to make the effort to see and do stuff - yes it's a massive country, but if you fly about (and ignore the sqealing about carbon prints) it'll open your mind. Save for 6 monthly trips like the Gt Eastern Pacific train from East 2 West for example.

The danger is not actually travelling once you start working....and because it's so far from A-B you need to really make the effort & have the money to fly to save time. Persuade friends to see you then plan said trips.

Working is just sooooo refreshing 'cos the ethic is that you work to live. You get/or used to get 10 paid sick days a year which you could take when you liked. So if you fancied a day on the beach instead then off you went!

Melbourne was far more cultural than Sydney which was over touristy - though Sydney was trying to get cultured when I was there 12 years ago (for a mates wedding!).

Bear in mind that Queensland is best visited in July - the start of their Winter. You can go in the sea safely (nasty blue ringed octopii & box jellyfish in March), and of course there are very nasty snakes/spiders. You need to be very hardy to actually live there. I have friends who live there and like anything, you do get used to it.

You can ski in Australia but the resorts/runs are small/short.

You are able to go to Venuatu/Easter/Cooke Islands/NZ/Fiji (though unfortunately a lot of the Aussies treat Fiji like Benidorm - & it's cheaper to go there than to stay in Aus!!

Canada reminded me of what England must have been like 50 yrs ago. I havent lived in Canada but have spent several weeks on hols (near Vancouver/BC - in Nelson, both summer and winter - -30 in Banff!).

Alcohol is frowned upon after one glass, and the speed limit is 60MPH - they have white van speed traps even as you drive through the Rockies and you're the only car on the road!

Also a bit Stepford/lots of baking. But pace of life slower than in Australia, which is speeding up.....plenty to see and do!

I personally would prefer Canada to live in than Australia 'cos the ski-ing is superb!

Good luck!

secretsquirrel1

"Canada reminded me of what England must have been like 50 yrs ago. I havent lived in Canada but have spent several weeks on hols (near Vancouver/BC - in Nelson, both summer and winter - -30 in Banff!).

Alcohol is frowned upon after one glass, and the speed limit is 60MPH - they have white van speed traps even as you drive through the Rockies and you're the only car on the road!"

Again, I think that's pretty close - although I wouldn't say 50 years - more like 30!

The speed limit thing I think is due to where you've visited. The 60mph limit (100km/h) is common around here (in the Rockies) because of the single lane in each direction highways (so equivalent layout to a UK national speed-limit country road, which would also be 60mph) and the real risk rurally is ploughing into a moose or deer, rather than from other traffic, but major highways approaching cites are often 110-120km/h, so equivalent to motorways in the UK.

With regards to the alcohol issue - we don't experience that attitude because we're surrounded by other European ex-pats but yes, cradle-Canadians don't seem to have the same drinking culture that you get in the UK (not a bad thing!) but what seems really disappointing is that the ones that do drink have a very relaxed attitude to driving afterwards :( (that's the 30 year "lag" thing again, I think, as drink driving was much more the norm in the UK in the 70s...)

Speed traps on empty roads - well, yes - they need to do something. Where we live, no-one locks their doors on their homes or vehicles...that time lag again...and the cops really aren't anywhere near as busy as they would be in a city. One of our local RCMP officers "Pete The Heat" is Santa at the school Christmas party. We were speeding last year because we were late for a flight (so doing around 130km/h in a 100km/h zone) and the first we noticed of the police car was as they turned on the siren and their flashing lights, approaching us from the opposite direction... We cursed and thought "fair cop guv" but the police car carried on and then they turned off the lights/siren. It worked - we slowed right down! We hadn't seen which officer was driving but next time we bumped into Pete he mentioned that he was warning us (he'd recognised our car) and that if there was a next time we would get pulled over, but that he always gives one chance to change your driving habits... I really can't imagine that happening in the UK, or in a city in Canada (not claiming it's better here, btw - just very different!)

YOTC, you were saying:

"Australia - pros: gorgeous country, great work / life balance, great outdoors culture, friendly people - Cons: Too hot, mossies, very far away"

I would add to the cons:

• You're a freak if you walk anywhere.....too bad if you don't have a car and you need to do a big food shop.
• You cannot have a 'bad day' or you're labelled a 'whinging Pom' - stock answer to that from me was "your Aussie accent is soooo refreshing" which actually meant "Rack off, you loud mouthed Colonial"
• Only 1 decent newspaper - Sydney Morning Herald (don't laugh - I'm Old School....adjusts zimmer frame )
• Feels closer to the States than UK - you will not get any news whatsoever about the UK unless something catostrophic happens. Though with the internet it's no big deal these days....but it was in 1992 when I was desperate to get election news (when Kinnock lost at the last minute!)
• Expensive to fly internally
• You have to do your own tax return every year (I'm guessing that's still the case?)
• Cockroaches....warning - they are huge! (regular 'roach bombs' a necessity!)
• Spiders - Huntsman/Wolfman (?) are the big furry ones but they're harmless. However, black widows & redbacks are very bad news. But the good news is that you'll soon develop good thigh muscles 'cos you'll never sit on a loo seat over there (they hide under the rim)
• Snakes - brown/black, quite common. Further North they have pythons.
• Flies - they have screens on the windows & doors, but you'll soon know about them when you go out in the Bush

Pro's:

• Excellent train services
• Excellent trams (Melbourne)
• The Express used to do a weekly roundup of all UK news - don't know if that's still going but it was great for Poms (too bad it was the Express though!)
• The quality of the food/veg/fruit - some of my best memories include the choice of fruit, sitting on a beach with a kilo of massive prawns, being overwhelmed by the excellent quality of the meat.
• Hunter Valley for wine (out of this world!)
• Schooling is better with smaller classess. My mate has just emigrated this year with DC's 6.5 & 8 so will ask for more news on that if you want.
• Far better place to bring up kids - much healthier lifestyle.

I'm on Nights so will keep thinking LOL!

Lazy - loved your stories of "Pete The Heat"

The alcohol thing - group of 4 (us) were invited to a meal at someones house (in Canada), I bought 4 bottles for us to take and was told that 1 bottle would suffice

Spiders - Huntsman/Wolfman (?) are the big furry ones but they're harmless. However, black widows & redbacks are very bad news. But the good news is that you'll soon develop good thigh muscles 'cos you'll never sit on a loo seat over there (they hide under the rim)

No, they don't! There is a type of spider that does, but your loo (or public loo) has to be very very dirty!

I have used lots of public loos in quite remote parts, they are v clean & never seen a spider in or under anything!

Apparently we have Black Widows here too - the children claimed they had seen one at school (although they were totally blase about this).

I've not noticed the no drinking culture here particularly (maybe it's just the friends I keep!)

I do agree on the time warp thing, and it's one of the things I appreciate for the children, they have a very active local social life, walk to school, cycle around to their friends etc. But I think that's probably more the small town thing. People really do know each other much better, which just means that they are far more relaxed I think.

Having lived in the States Canada feels like a cross between the US and the UK, but my experience is really only of BC, and there is a lot of variation. I'd be surprised if the same wasn't true of Australia.

Ha - I was told that black widows did live there....but maybe I was having my leg pulled?!

In any case, I didn't have a problem with not sitting on loo seats, but I have my mother to thank for that (another story altogether )

If I wasn't so old, I'd seriously consider living in Canada - it'd be marvellous for both DD & I.

We definitely do get black widows in Canada, but only in the warmer, more Southerly parts of BC and Alberta, I believe? Their range certainly doesn't extend as far North as where we are in BC (which is right near Jasper, AB, but just across the provicial border in BC.) I am very thankful for that!! I love spiders, they are fascinating creatures (I keep and breed reptiles and have many friends who are into arachnids) and I've been the one called to drive round to a friend's house (several miles away, LOL!) to "rescue" her from a big house spider when we lived in the UK, but that was safe in the knowledge that it couldn't hurt me... Not at all keen on the idea of living anywhere where they can harm me!

Where in Canada and where in Australia? I don't think you can generalize - it's like saying England or Scotland, without picking up that there are some fantastic parts to each and some rubbish areas too.

Also, from what I have seen of friends and relatives, Canada is very very difficult to get visas for, especially permanent ones, unless you are married to a Canadian citizen. Even if you apparently meet all the points criteria.

Oz, on the other hand, still seems to be a fairly straightforward affair. If you are serious, it might pay to put in your applications and see where it takes you - not wanting to sound negative but you may not get a choice at the end of the process.

We live in the Southern Interior, so yes much hotter than up by Jasper, and I share your general approach to spiders, so long as I'm confident that they can't hurt me I am fine with them, in fact insects wise I only really have a problem with mosquitos (being apparently very tasty). We are just about to have a short holiday up by Jasper (driving up via Mount Robson and then probably down on the road to Banf) - everyone says it's very beautiful and less busy than the Southern Rockies.

Re getting out to Canada the way to go is to get a temporary work permit and then make it permanent once you arrive. But getting the job whilst not being in the country is difficult unless you do something that is in high demand. However I'd say in general it's the best way to emigrate, as it is very very expensive and moving to a new life with no idea whether you will be able to support yourself is highly stressful.

Ooooh - when?? I only live 10 mins from Mt.Robson - pop in for a cuppa!