Can I please ask those in Germany to give me their opnion.....

[ilovespinach]

I'm more of a floater then a poster so I hope you don't mind me asking for your opnion....

DH and I have lived in Germany now for about 10 years. We have always worked/socialised in English speaking environments which is why our German isn't up to so much. We have 2 dc's both born in Germany..

We like it here in Germany - the place where we live is great for the kids, lots to do, nice standard of living etc.....

However, our eldest DC is coming up for 4 soon and this has started DH and I thinking about school.

Dh and I don't know the school system here in too much detail but we have heard bad things about it - that there isn't much help available if you're not a native German speaker and the structure of the schools when they move to secondary leaves a lot disadvantaged if they get stuck in the wrong school (as I said, not sure if this is actually true - just what I have heard).

DS1 is a bright boy we think - he seems interested in learning and likes to practice writing etc but I can't get over the feeling that he will be massively disadvantaged from the offset because of the language. He goes to German kindergarten and can chit chat with his friends but this is a far cry from sitting down and listening to a teacher all day and having to read and write in German. I also get the feeling that he will struggle at schoool - he is bright but has a very hard time to sit still and concentrate for a long spell of time. We would get some afterschool help for him as DH and I with our very limited German would not be able to help him with his school work.

I guess you can see where this is heading?.....

DH may have the possibility of moving back to England with his job. Something which has been mostly driven from the fact that if we lived in England, DS1 would start school later this year.

I guess what I am asking is that, if you were in our situation, do you think that a move back to England would be the right thing??

Other points for England would be us being closer to family and it maybe easier for me to get back into work.... The idea of moving fills me with nerves but maybe a change of scenery would be a god thing for us - force us out of our comfort zone.

Thanks for reading.

I lived in Germany until about a year and a half ago when we moved to Geneva. My DD was 6yo and due to start school in Germany when we moved. Our situation was very different in that DH is German so our DC are bilingual.

The problem is not so much the language for your DS. As we have seen on moving to French speaking Switzerland wiht absolutely no French language skills, the DC pick it up easily. If your DS goes to kindergarten, I am sure he would cope well with school. And he has two years to go before he has to learn to sit still at school. The kindergarten will help him, they start preschool lessons in the year before the DC go to school.

School in Germany is a big step from kindergarten, much more difficult that going from nursery in UK to school. Partly because they are older of course. It is a very formal learning, less playful as they have to cram more in due to starting two years later.

Saying that, they do seem to learn to read and write very fast.

The German school system is not an easy one for Brits to understand, and cope with especially if you do not speak much German. If you are going to do this, you need to start getting more contact with other Germans, perhpas from Kindergarten, to improve your German.

As you probably know, the school system is federal matter so it will depend on which Bundesland you are in to how the school system is. Where abouts in Germany are you?

Hi, I can tell you a bit about the German school system... for a start he won't start school until he's 6 or even 7, depending on what month he was born in. In the first year, he probably won't have more than 3 45-minute lessons a day (unless they've changed that since I went to school) and it will all be quite playful so I think he'd be absolutely fine. If he's okay at kindergarten, there is no reason why he should struggle at school, IMO. I had a friend who moved from Germany to the US when she was 7 and didn't speak a word of English, but started school there straight away and she was fine. Children learn so quickly.

The only thing I would suggest is that you do try and mix with Germans a bit, meet up with the kindergarten mums etc. If you think your German isn't up to scratch, many of them will probably be more than happy to chat to you in English.

It's not more complicated than the British school system They start off in Grundschule, where they do 4 years, then you move on to Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium, depending on your capabilities. Realschule leads you to O-level equivalent (Mittlere Reife) when you're 16, then you can start an apprenticeship or go on to take A-levels (Abitur). Gymnasium goes all the way up to Abitur. Hauptschule is best avoided really. You can switch from one of the secondary school types to the other at any point, e.g. if you're doing really well at Realschule your teacher might suggest you try the Gymnasium. Equally, if you're struggling they might suggest you'd be happier at the Hauptschule. I think this pretty much sums it up?

thanks for the replies...we are in Stuttgart.

I guess it's the language thing that really freaks me out (more my inability to help with homework, speak to the teachers ...) and the fact that I don't know the system.

The thing is the possibility of moving to England is coming up fast on the horizon...We need to make a decision what is best for these kids fast

The language will be ok. My French is really not up to helping with homework so we have a English/French neighbour's son come around once a week to listen to DD read.

Would moving back to UK be good or bad for your DH's career? And for your finances/cost of living?

So, what else would you like to know about the school system? I am certain the teachers will also happily talk to you in English. Why not go see the headmaster of the local school for a chat, explain your concerns, see what they say? You might find you're not the only English mum there. Yes Stuttgart is a lovely place for children, I've lived there too

Ultimately I am sure they'll be happy whereever you take them, so what would YOU prefer?

Could you pay an older child (neighbour) to help with the homework?

Yes, we could pay for some afterschool help.....

We really need to check out the cost of living in the UK - I have only lived with my parents there so I have no idea how much running a houshold costs....

We will find out soon if DH is able to keep his same job but do it instead in England - we would need to see if they would keep his contract and pay him the same.....He would be happy to keep his job as he likes it and is doing well. He feels that although we have been here for a while, we have no real roots here and I think he is coming round to the idea of moving back.....

Thanks for the tips about looking round the loacl schools here...not something I had thought of in my panicked state Time is still on our side with the language/school if we stayed in Germany.

I guess if we moved back then we might have a struggle to find a school place for September?

Yes, definitely find out about the local schools, particularly if you have free school choice or if your DC would have to go to the nearest school.

We certainly could not have moved to UK as DH would not have been able to earn as much unless we went to London area, and then we would have spent so much on housing that it would have been infeasible.

Also think about the fact that although UK is home for you, your DC have grown up in Germany so you would be taking them away from their friends and familiar environment.

Although each family is different I thought you might be reassured by my sistr inlaws exerience. She went to live near Munich in 1993 when her daughter was 2. She then had two boys in Germany. All three have gone through the German education system. Now 18,15,and 11 yrs all are doing really well, all confident, happy children with many friends, with lots of interests including music and drama. And, of course they ar ebi-lingual which has to be a big advantage for when they are adults. Oldest is thinking of university in UK. Good luck with decisions.

we moved to germany last year with our 3 dc (they were 7, 4 and 2 at the time). Grabted dh is german but he spoke only a bit of german when we were in the UK so they're german wasnt great when we got here.

1 year on dd is getting 1's in her report for german and ds1 passed all his tests as to whether he was ready to go to school this year (although we've decided to keep him back till next year till he's nearly 7 - this is mostly so he's not the youngest in the class which would be a disadvantage when it came to secondary schools etc). i think they only speak a bit more german at home - the rest they've learned from being at school/kiga and socialising with their german friends.

i think your perception of school in germany being quite tough is fairly accurate but it has its plus sides. They work hard at the core subjects in the Grundschule but dd is finished every day at 1pm so we have a much better quality of life because we have time to do fun things in the afternoon.

i'm no expert about school later on - we havent got that far thro the school system!

as far as dealing with them being at school - i think in a big city like stuttgart there will be somoeone at the school who speaks english and for the first year their homework is about learning to read and after being in germany for 10 years i'm sure you're german is at that level!!

i would stay here if i was you (children will be bilingual, better quality of life, better housing) but i understand your apprehensions about coping with the language side of things!! maybe it'll be the spur for you to learn the language better!

Speaking as someone who grew up in Germany, went to school in Germany and now lives in the UK (came here to University), I would tend to agree with the previous poster in that your children would benefit from doing their schooling in Germany and grow up being completetly bilingual.

Also very much agree with the quality of life aspect. Unless you earn a good salary, life can be quite tough here in the UK, and schools not that great, especially at secondary level. Again, it helps if you can afford private schooling. Also, housing costs are so much more expensive than in Germany...

And I don't know about German schools making you work harder. I only know the German side of things of course but I never felt under too much pressure. I mean, you get the whole afternoon off, every day!

Feierabend
I think that the big difference between UK and German schools is that the German schools do permanent Schulaufgaben/Stehgreifaufgaben - basically little tests all year round that determine the end of year result.

This means that the DC are constantly revising for some test that may or may not be announced in advance. It is for some DC a stressful experience.

You do need to be quite hands on as a parent of a German school child, imo.

Is it different in the UK? Do you only do exams once or twice a year then?

I think so. Or that is how it was when I was at school. And tests did not start until we were older.

From what I hear from friends with DC in Germany the pressure is on from the start of primary school in Germany.

Hmmm really I never felt any pressure at all. You just know you'll have a written test every 6 weeks or so in the main subjects, and twice a term in the other subjects, and I suppose if that's what you're used to you just roll with it. But then I was probably lucky because I didn't have to work hard at school to get good results.

By the way, somehow it seems fairer if the overall mark you get at the end of a year is based on your performance throughout the year, and several exams, rather than just one exam at the end of the year. Because if you mess up in that one, you're screwed whereas if you mess up in one of six written exams, you can still save your result by working harder for the other ones. Or something to that effect, I am rambling now

We are also in BW (near Karlsruhe) so I know a bit about the education system in these parts. Schools are considered to be pretty tough here and standards high, not as tough as in Bavaria though.

As others have said, they start at 6 or sometimes even 7, then have 4 years at Grundschule at the end of which they are sorted into either Gymnasium, Realschule or Hauptschule. Some Bundesländer have comprehensive schools but they don't exist in BW afaik. As long as you get to either Gymnasium or Realschule you have the chance to do your Abitur and go onto university. One point to be aware of though is that the decision as to which secondary school your dc go to, rests almost entirely with the classteacher in Year 4. This is different in other BL where the parents have a say and can ignore the advice of the teacher. Personally I think it is crazy to sort children at this age but there is no great desire to change the system here even if parents grumble about it.

In general I do find the system very rigid here. It doesn't do much for those at the bottom or top of the class (standard solution seems to be either to repeat or skip a class). Class sizes are quite big and there are no assistant teachers to ease the teachers' workload. Also, it is not good if your child finds the constant testing stressful, and I know many who do. There is also much emphasis put on parents being able to help out with the homework so I can see why you are worried about that but I think it's more important that you provide a calm atmosphere for them to get the work done by themselves rather than actually doing the homework for them. I have learnt this the hard way after spending many afternoons pleading or screaming at them to get their homework done.

On the plus side, I like the fact that children are encouraged to be independent here from an early age. If you have dc who are well organised and don't let the homework drag on through the afternoon then there is also much more time to play after school. This is great in the summer when you can spend lazy afternoons at the Freibad after school.

I think if your dc have been to KG here their German will be fine when they start school (but you are right to be concerned about lack of help for non native speakers) and they will have a massive advantage in being bilingual later.

feierabend - we came here last year - my DD had been in Y3 in the UK and only got a spelling test every fri (10 words) and the other kids marked it!!!!! and she had done her first lot of sats altho there was no fuss made of it.

she's now in the 3rd class here and has about 2 tests a week. All are brought home to be signed and sent back so all count towards her end of year mark. Some of them she knows are coming but others are a surprise. thankfully she copes well with it but i can see this could be stressful for others. on the other hand it prepares her well for her later school years which primary school in the UK does not.

My dd is currently in Y3 here in UK. She has a spelling test every Friday, a maths test every Wednesday and has been tested in other subjects (history, science etc.) once a term so far. The end of term report shows her performance in her tests (absolute and relative to average) as well as the class work in all subjects.

I wouldn't be worried about the language aspect too much - your DC will have learned enough in the Kita to cope for the first grade. What we've found tough is helping in maths, firstly because we don't understand the terms (or the symbols) and secondly because the methodology is different here to Britain of (gulp) thirty years ago. For the first time ever we got a bit of Nachhilfe recently to explain things after DD1 got a 4 in one maths test.

The downside is that German schools are not big on helping struggling children - the onus is on the child and the parents (to provide Nachhilfe). German teachers seem to see their role as 'selecting' and assessing the children's capabilities rather than actually teaching them anything. Anyone who can't keep up is just sent down to the next 'lowest' school form. I would agree that you need to avoid the Hauptschulen at all costs.

Is there not an international school in Stuttgart which does half English half German? That's a lot easier because you're with a load of other expats and your legitimate concerns are addressed more specifically.

One of my jobs is interviewing prospective students for an English/German university programme. Most of the candidates are German with good English, but sometimes we get bilinguals who have gone to school entirely in the German school system despite only speaking English at home. They're generally really high achievers in both languages.

Oh, you might find some more opinions on the Stuttgart board of www.toytowngermany.com

I wouldn't worry about language difficulties too much, your DS will pick up enough German to deal with school by the time he is 6.

I moved from the UK to Germany with my British parents when I was 7, to a smallish town near Stuttgart, and started school there halfway though the first year of the Grundschule. I did almost all my education in Germany, apart from almost 2 years at a British school in the UK when I was about 13 or 14.

For us it was a very positive experience. OK, so we struggled a bit with the language at first (not really a problem for me because I was young, but it did mean that my older brother, who moved when he was 9, had to repeat one year of Grundschule because he was sent to a special class to learn some German when we first arrived), but that sorted itself out in time.

My parents spoke no German when we arrived, and never helped us with homework, except sometimes with our French homework when we got to the Gymnasium, but it never really mattered - I felt that overall our teachers were quite supportive, and helped us as much as they could. Also, my parents had a very relaxed but supportive attitude towards marks and tests, as long as we just about got by, so I never felt stressed by getting bad marks at times.

I am very glad I went to school in Germany, but then I am very biased because I absolutely hated the two years I spent at a secondary school in the UK - I found it cold, uptight, full of rules, (uniforms and queuing in nice rows outside classrooms are not done in most German schools!), relations with the teachers were overall not that great, and there was lots of bullying and nastiness that I never encountered at any of my German schools, and I found all the hanging around going to assembly and stuff really boring. My parents also preferred the German system once they had got used to it. I found school relatively easy, so I guess it wouldn't ultimately have mattered where I was, but my brother has never been very academic and struggled in some subjects, but he still ended up with a good secondary education, was very happy at school, and got into a decent university.

Re. homework: I think this will depend more on the individual school than on the system. Some of my friends in the UK tell me their children get loads of homework and spelling tests every week, and some tell me they get nothing, same goes for my friends in Germany. A lot of my friends in Germany are working mums and they send their children to a Hort (a sort of afterschool), and the children do their homework there, so that could also be a solution for you if you are worried about not being to help with the homework because of language difficulties.

I think the main disadvantages about the German system are that:

• It seems idiotic to send children to different schools at the age of 10, it disadvantages late developers, and changing schools is not totally straightforward (even though I know loads of people who did it). There used to be some comprehensive schools in BW, but I think they could have been been changed status now, which would be a shame.
• it is probably true that there is not that much support for kids who are struggling, but that was not our experience, my mother always felt that my brother got about the same amount of support at his German school as he did in the UK before we left for Germany, but that could have changed over the years, and the UK seems to have done a lot to support struggling pupils and make sure they don't fall behind. They probably do have a lot of tests of Germany, which could cause stress for some, but I think that any education system will have an element of that.

Anyway, good luck with your decision, it is not easy to make decisions like this. I think about it quite a bit - my children are in the Romanian system (my husband is Romanian), which I also find very far from ideal!