Today's Madame Figaro - Elisabeth Badinter...

[Bonsoir]

is interviewed criticising the pressure on women to breastfeed/cosleep/dedicate themselves to the welfare of their children and explains why the French model of motherhood (outsourcing care) is best.

Fascinating. She completely bypasses the point that women might actually enjoy their babies and the full back-to-nature experience...

Link? Actually, she sounds like my sort of woman.

Just got in from Rue Poncelet (and Fnac).

There's an article about this in today's guardian too. (which is why I did a search under 'badinter' & this came up). I think we can start a thread about this in 'in he news' or even AIBU eg 'AIBU to think ap is anti-feminist' with a link to the article. It would lead to a nice debate I think.

I wish I could link, but it was in the paper version, not on-line, which is why I put it in Living Overseas rather than In The News.

I cannot face sliding down Courcelles again to get Le Figaro. Have read the Grauniad article on line. Why can't women have the choice as to what they do? (OK, I realise that a lot of people do go back to work because they have to, but if you choose to stay at home, why not? I admit I couldn't have done it - I would go completely round the twist, but if you can afford it and want to do it, then why not?

That's why Mme Badinter infuriates me - she doesn't think that women should have any choice - but that's because the economic independence/participation in public life argument overrides any other consideration in her opinion...

We get Le Figaro delivered to the apartment on Saturday - you can have a subscription whereby it arrives in your office Mon-Fri and at your home on Saturday. Otherwise I'd never read it (and DP tries to hide it from me as it always incenses me and gets the w/e off to a bad start )

Ha, I was going to post about this.
Haven't even read the article, just heard loads about her book on the radio, and could guess what it was about.

Very infuriating.

I bought the book to read on holiday next week - deeply sad of me, I know, but there is something in me that can't resist those silly French essay type books by people who cannot get over the fact that their once innovative ideas have been well and truly superseded, and make a last ditch attempt for a return to a bygone area when they were influential.

Why can't old French celebrities ever retire gracefully?

I saw something about this in the Telegraph on Sunday (I don't read it, it was the only paper in the cafe I was in!). Is this the woman who thinks that the emphasis on Earth Motherhood (breastfeeding, making babyfood from scratch, being very involved with the baby) is unravelling all the work feminists have fought so hard for, and that the women should dump the baby and run back to work as soon as possible?

Exactly, SofaQueen. She's getting a lot of press for the book. I haven't done more than stick my nose in it but will definitely read it while lounging round the spa in Val d'Isère next week while the boys are pounding down the pistes... No problems assuming gender differences in my family

That's her.

It's not as if French women get much chance to spend ages with their babies, with 10wks maternity leave after the birth. BFing is hardly confining women to their homes here, from what I see.

Makes me v annoyed.

MIL had her kids in the late 60's/early 70's, in the heyday of Badinter et al., and she barely breastfed at all, as women from her generation were so triumphant at having won the right to work that they were gleefully FFing all the way. She worked in Arras, her DH in Paris, and they lived in Paris, so as a baby DH was looked after by a 15-yr-old distant cousin from the country who had been moved to Paris to avoid her getting up to nonsense in a cowshed with the neighbours' son. He has some sad memories of being looked after by the concierge each afternoon/evening when he was at maternelle.

I can see why MIL and her peers were so pleased at having the right to work, but Badinter's arguments seem v outdated. Surely we have moved on, now that women's right to work isn't in dispute? (Though I agree that really equal rights is another issue).

Where is the choice? The balance? The compromise solution?

(I know, the French favour grand, sweeping, universal, one-size-fits-all theories, not pragmatic, adjustable ones....)

While I am by no means a fan of Badinter, I have heard her several times on the radio and read several articles in the press this week and feel I ought to take her defence.

In fairness, she is not saying that women SHOULDN'T do all of these things, she is simply saying that we shouldn't feel that we HAVE to do them or that we are bad mothers if we don't or can't.

(Dons flame proof vest and prepares for the worst)

FrogLover - actually, my understanding so far is that Badinter is as one-sided as AA describes. You are being too generous.

But I will read the book and report back in more detail.

TBH, I don't think the problem is that women in France feel they have to do these things. I just don't think there is much pressure to BF, certainly not to cosleep, and everything is rigged up for women to hand their babies over to someone else at 10wks.

If you want to do some or all of these things, it is often very hard and the vast majority of people think you are a nutcase.

Just finding somewhere at work to express my milk was an amazing trial. I ended up in the nurse's office, which is in fact the only room in the place with hot water on tap . And I had to wrap the bottles in endless bags before putting them in the manky staffroom fridge.

In contrast, one of the mums on my ante-natal thread, who does the same job as me in the UK, got a special hi-tech coolbag funded by her employers, so that she could express in her office and keep her milk cool until she got home.

I certainly wasn't struggling under the pressure to BF.

I agree with AA - there is currently no pressure on women in France to breastfeed/cosleep/stay at home with their babies. As far as I undestand it, Badinter is complaining about pressure from the ROW to do these things, and shouting about how the French way is better...

I was less courageous than AA and retreated to England for the first months of my DD's life, where I could indulge in my full back to nature moment with the full support and encouragement of my entourage.

Hey, Auld, the ladies in finance thought I was a total nutcase for expressing at work and refused to order said cool bag in a timely manner, putting all sorts of administrative hurdles in the way. I only won because the law is so very strong and well tested that all the finance blokes ran scared. And they run the joint. Plus my boss is a sociologist!

But I agree it sounds fairly dreadful in France. It is perfectly possible to reconcile cooking a few bits and bobs for babies, bf for as long as you like, and also sleeping in the same bed as a baby with having a public life. Society should fit in with women in this regard, and work needs to change, not women. Until then, feminism has not even got to the starting line IMO.

My DP runs a company with several hundred employees of whom 95% are women, and the vast majority of those are of child-bearing age. Managing maternity leaves is a big issue in his company, but totally under control. However, when I quizzed him one day as to how his company manages the breastfeeding rights of post-maternity leave employees (companies are held by law to allow lactating mothers time off during the working day to breastfeed) he said that the question had, to his knowledge, never arisen. They just don't breastfeed when they return to work (there are, however, quite frequently employees who take prolonged maternity leave) - if they ever did. Of course, it is quite hard to breastfeed if your baby is going to go to a crèche, which is what happens to most of his employees' babies.

See, that's it Anna, they just basically don't BF because nothing is set up to make it possible. Your DP is not trying to prevent them from doing so, they have chosen beforehand to FF.

The idea that they are under pressure is pants, IMO. I was under far greater pressure not to BF when DS1 was born.

There was some EU legislation being discussed about 2 yrs ago, to allow much longer statutory maternity leave to all women in the EU, about 1yr, I think. Maybe Badinter has been sent in as an advance attack on legislation from outwith France imposing BFing and other nonsense on sensible French women?

Boff, I know you are not entirely representative, as you are the Boadicea of BFing. But so am I, in French terms, and the contrast is rather striking.

Oops, I meant Bonsoir. (in case anyone thinks I have an imaginary MN buddy called Anna)

And I believe the new spelling is Boudica

I agree, the setup always seems to assume that mothers are going to FF.

It's like childbirth - it hadn't actually struck me, until someone pointed it out to me, that French maternités are, for the most part, constructed and equipped for mothers to give birth lying on their backs with their feet in stirrups. Hospitals need to invest money in alternative equipment if women are to be able to give birth in other positions.

I do despair that umpteen years after Odent stirrups are still considered acceptable rather than medieval.

LOL BoffinMum, any visit to any ob/gyn in Paris involves stirrups, IME

I wouldn't go, if that was the case. It's like being arrested and automatically put in the stocks before you've had a trial.

I started the Badinter oeuvre in bed last night... it uses a lot of predictably loaded language (talks about the conflict betweent the duties of motherhood and the desires of womanhood (aka working)). Grrrr.

Forty years into feminism and this is as far as we've got.

What has happened to the mother of all outsourcers, Rachida "CS five days ago and I now need to save my political ass" Dati, btw? Presumably she has had plenty of time at home lately?

Yeah, the Badinter thing is pretty unbelievable really. My (French) DH was horrified when we saw her interviewed, and thinks she has no understanding of real life.
Most French mums I know would actually like to have more time with their children but feel they don't have much choice, both financially and because there are aren't many options for part-time work (except maybe .8 with Wednesdays off. The one I do know who resigned and managed to get a 2-day a week job (albeit with 11 hour shifts) is sooooooooo much happier!

As for Dati, I think she's a European MP now... as in, sidelined, despite her supposedly heroic efforts