Those in Spain (or other EU countries) and starting school early

[bebespain]

I am in Spain and children are eligible to start infant school the year they turn 3. Even though DS isn´t 3 til mid December he can start this coming Sep, he will be one of the youngest if not the youngest.

I am dead against him going and although it isn´t obligatory it does seem to be the norm to send DC to school as soon as possible.

I wonder if anyone else has kept their DC at home and if so has this had consequences for getting a place a year or two down the line.

I think I am worried that by going against the majority, in-laws etc that I will end up putting myself out on a limb and ultimately end up with egg on my face.

I just feel DS is far too young, its full days too, no flexibility either and I only see negatives by him going at such a young age.

Hi bebespain,

I have 4 DC and the oldest 3 go to a Spanish state school. DC3 (my only DS) started this academic year and is 4. He was 3 when he started. Because his birthday is 1st Jan, he is the oldest in his class, and yes, he did still seem pretty young on day 1.

I teach English to his class once a week so I get a chance to see what happens from the inside. They do spend some time sitting at tables (in groups) but they also spend time playing, doing circle time, outside in the playground etc. In that sense, it is really pretty similar to a nursery. They don't officially start doing things like learning to read until 'primaria' starts at age 6 and so it is not a particularly academically based curriculum.

My DC's school is from 9am till 2pm. That's pretty common here. Does your potential school have a longer day, or do you feel that is too long? Mine come home for lunch, but some schools here have a 'comedor' and so the day is a bit longer to accommodate lunch, though this is optional.

Re future places, it depends on your school. If it is oversubscribed, the places will be allotted for the first year and those kids will continue on to the next year, so you will only get a place in subsequent years if someone leaves (and you are top of the waiting list). However, if not all the places are used, it might not be a problem to enrol your DS in subsequent years.

Whereabouts are you? The enrolment for the coming year in Andalucia has already happened so I am guessing you are somewhere else and the timetable is a bit different?

Hi claricebean

Thanks for your reply!

I am in Madrid and the enrolment process is now until the 4th May, so am deliberating whether to apply at all. The local school is oversubscribed and therefore we may not even get a place and I would imagine it will be the same for subsequent years. There lies another potential problem...

It really shocked me that when the Head explained they do 9-1, then lunch either at school or at home and then back again in the afternoon for a couple of hours Maybe if it was just the morning I could get my head around that but to have to go back for the afternoon session I feel is much too much.

Its reassuring to know its not too academically based but I just cannot shake the feeling he is much too young

Do you have any choice over the school he goes to? Is there more than one? Here, some schools do go back after an early lunch, but they tend to be 'semi concertado', i.e. part state and part private (though in reality they are so heavily subsidised as to be pratically state funded).

It's a shame it's an over subscribed school. You are right that you might not even get a place this year, but the odds are much more heavily in your favour now (you only want one out of 25 or so places) rather than in a years' time (when you will want one out of, potentially, zero places).

Have you looked around the school? Did you like it? Have you looked at any others? We looked around 3 before we chose the one our DC are at and they all had quite a different feel.

I guess if you are still undecided you could apply for a place and see what happens. He might not get one, and even if he does I suppose you could still not send him (although not sure whether this is likely to scupper your future applications). And, at this age, they do grow up really quickly so you might feel differently come September. I must admit, I agree that 2 is incredibly young to think about school. But we put DS in nursery for a year before he went to school to give him a bit of a fighting chance with the Spanish (we only speak English at home) and, to be honest, there was no real difference between nursery and school.

Ah yes the closest school happens to be semi-concertado so maybe that explains the return after lunch - thanks for that I hadn´t realised that might be why.

There is another public school that´s a little further...any other would involve getting in the car and I wanted to avoid that. To be honest I haven´t looked around at all as up until last week I was convinced I wouldn´t send him

Funny you should mention Nursery as I had thought whether I could send him to one on a much more reduced timetable instead, at least to get him used to being away from home etc, but if there´s not much difference....ah what a mindfield! I never thought I would have to think about these things so early on, didn´t even realise the differences with the Spanish system until a couple of months ago

Do you notice a big difference in the maturity, capabilties etc between the older children and the youngest? I imagine the differences between 4 and 3 year olds is pretty marked when they are so young.

Thanks again

You mean nursery school?
It is the same here in Italy, but you can successfully apply an year later. Lots of people don't do this though, as nursery schools here are in general very good here, and free (while nurseries for under 3 are not)

Not sure how you´d call it Franca. To me it´s Infant School as it is part of the Primary School which caters for pupils up to 11/12 years.

Nursery Schools are separate all tgether and cater 0-3 although somebody with more knowledge may wish to correct me"

As far as I know it isn´t obligatory until the age of 6 but everybody seems to take up a place before then

Hi bebespain, we're in Murcia and ds's birthday is Nov, so he was 2 when he started, as your ds would be. He's 4 now, in his 2nd year. We chose an international school because the curriculum was more akin to the english style, with more learning through play-type activities, whereas we found the local schools were very bookish and blackboard orientated which I really felt was FAR too formal. ds goes from 9 till 5, they had siesta after lunch in their first year, and now they have a play time or organised story or sport type activity before resuming at 3 till 5. Afternoon sessions are typically less structured.

It suits ds perfectly, in fact it was better than his nursery when he started. He took to the letters and number learning straight away (I was so worried it was all too early) and kept up without any problems. Other children also with late birthdays and young have also been OK. They also obviously tailor other parts of the curriculum to smaller children - "science" in the first term was learning the colours of the rainbow and about snowflakes, for example.

I think it really depends on the individual school: we also applied for a local "semi concertado" but in the event decided against it purely on the merits (or not!) of the school itself.

The thought of "school" so "early" goes so against the grain that it's hard to see yourself sending them, but don't dismiss it out of hand, have a look at the schools first. ds has loved it, and it turned out to be just right for him. You can always change your mind later if that turns out to be not the case!

Bebespain, sorry I realize that the system might be slightly different from Italy,
Here in Italy we have:
nurseries (asilo nido) for the under 3
scuola materna (nursery school?) for the 3-6
and primary school which starts at 6

So, as you see it is called "school" here as well, but there is no formal education as such, though the activities are calibrated following the different ages of the children.
Here as well children start in the year they turn 3, therefore some might be 2 and a half when they start. Some parents decide to wait another here, according to their children personalities and their childcare solutions. But overall, scuole materne are very popular here.

I'm not sure re the average quality of Spanish schools, so I can't really advise, but wouldn't think twice about sending mine to our local scuola materna

another here? another year, sorry lots of typos!

I'm in France rather than Spain but I had many of the same concerns as you about starting school at 3. DS1's b'day is in October so he started in September just before his 3rd birthday and was one of the younger ones (as they go to December like you). I was concerned about having such a structured day, so many rules, too much learning, having to interact with so many kids etc.

If I were you, I would apply for the place now as it is easier to pull out later than to apply later if you change your mind.

However, to be honest I have been VERY pleasantly surprised by the whole infant school process and very very impressed by what they do. There is some learning, but it is largely done through play and there was also quite a bit of free play.

I think it would be worth going and having a good chat to the school (and ideally the teacher your child would have if possible) and really finding out what the school day actually involves. Explain that you come from a country with a totally different approach to education (and starting age) and that you need to understand how it works.

Also, here school is not compulsory until 6 and depending on the school they do allow more flexibility than I expected. In the end we put DS1 in for the mornings only for the first year, although by about March he was happy to go back for one afternoon and then I think two by the end of that school year.
Second year we put him in two afternoons a week, and then three towards the end, and now he's in the third year (age 5) and he does all four afternoons.

Interestingly, although they start school early they don't learn to read until primary school at age 6, so it really is a very different system and much less "school"-like than you may imagine.

The first day was incredibly traumatic as you had to leave your screaming child among 30 others with only 2 adults (they had had one earlier session with just 10 screaming children), but he soon got used to it and in fact has really enjoyed it. In the end I explained to the teacher that (once again) I came from a very different system, and asked that I be able to wait until someone was available for me to hand him over to personally rather than leaving him in the middle of the class.

He has made friends, many of whose parents have become our friends, and it has really integrated us into the community. He has had such a positive experience of "school", I have no regrets at all.

The other thing I would say, and what really made me decide to put him in at 3 despite my misgivings, is that I realised every other child of his age would be at school, and that not putting him in would deprive him of that social interaction. I don't know if he could have stayed at the creche, but it would have been with a bunch of 2-year-olds, and I think at home with me would have been a disaster (also I worked half-time). I did also look at a local Steiner "school" which had smaller class sizes and more flexibility, but it wasn't really "us".

Good luck with the decision, I know how hard it is.

Thanks Weta for your post, its a big help

I do worry about his lack of social interaction as we know only a few mums with similar aged children and they are at Nursery full-time anyway so not available for play-dates during the week

I agree that its easier to apply for the place now. I shall do that and if we are offered one I shall go and talk to the school and find out exactly how the day goes etc

Gracias to kitbit too

Hi again bebespain,

Re whether I notice a big difference in the children depending on their ages, the answer is probably yes. There certainly seems a big range of ability and behaviour in DS's class, although I do not know the birthdays of the children so I could not say for definite that the ones who seem the youngest actually are the youngest IYSWIM. There are also one or two kids who are still reluctant to let go of their mum or dad at the beginning of the day and others (like my DS) who disappear into the classroom without a backwards glance - I think this is more personality than age led.

If I were you, I would check out both schools that are local to you. I can understand why you want to avoid the car for the school run; I am the same. IME the semi concertados tend to be more academic, more results oriented and more catholic (they have misa at school for example); the state run ones are not allowed to be religious (not sure if this is an issue for you or not), although they do give religious classes (which are only catholicism, not world religion as you find in the UK system. You can opt out of these in you want); I have also found that the state run ones are changing their teaching methods and moving away from chalk and talk (slowly); this change doesn't seem to be happening in the semi-concertados. For instance, my friends' children in semi-concertados get tested at least once week per subject (in primaria), whereas mine get tested maybe once or twice a term (The Spanish love testing). I appreciate these things may not be important for your DS now, but, as you say, he will be there until 11 or 12, so it's better to make an informed choice now than have to change him later.

In the same vein, think about how the school hours will suit you going forward, not just next year. Are you planning to go back to work at some point and, if so, would him having lunch at school and continuing on in the afternoon actually be useful? Do you have the option of taking the place and not bringing him back to school after lunch for the first year?

Sorry to load more information on you when you are already so unsure, but HTH in a small way!

Thanks clarice bean for that insight - wish I had sought your advice sooner, I have to admit to being pretty clueless about Spanish schools and how they work

That´s really good news about state schools changing their teaching methods albeit slowly, slowly. I´ve heard about lots of chalk and talk in Spanish schools and this is another off-putting factor for me.

I am actually 8 months pg so won´t be looking to work in the near future. That in itself is another concern as I feel there could be the danger of DS1 feeling very pushed out, new baby arrives and he´s packed off to school - argh!

To be honest, I was completely clueless when we first arrived and enrolled DD1. We got lucky with her school and I've found out loads along the way.

Congratulations on your impending arrival. I can see why you might be worried about DS feeling pushed out, but you have some time on your side once the new one is here before September. It may only seem like a short time to you, but it will seem like the new status quo for DS by then.

One more thing to add to the mix is that the afternoons that kids go back to school might be age related. I have a friend with 2 DC and one goes back on Mondays and Weds, the other on Tues and Thurs. They are 2 years apart. That has pros and cons, of course. It's a pain in terms of the school run, but it does give you 1:1 time with each child.

For what it's worth, I have been pleasantly surprised with the kind of education my DC have received here. For DD1 the testing and homework are just kicking off (she's 8) but I had expected it to be like that all the way through really. In infantil there was a lot of emphasis on play, and they don't really do reading / maths until primaria which I like as it gave the DC a good chance to concentrate on their Spanish (though this is maybe not such an issue for you as am assuming your DH/DP is Spanish given your in law comments in OP).

I think, and this is only through my experience (and friends'), that they don't feel pushed out if another baby arrives. Ds was at nursery when dd was born and loved going there, it was like his own thing, iyswim.
Reading Claricebean's posts it really sounds like spanish schools are quite similar to Italian scuola materna, where there is no formal learning (they might do letters etc with the 5 yr old) but lots of playing, sticking, gluing, storytelling etc etc.
Go and visit the school, you might be pleasantly surprised

And congratulations on your pg!

claricebean - glad to hear your experience is a positive one. Maybe homones are making me feel extra worried and protective over DS1

You´re right about DH being Spanish however DS says very little in Spanish and I´m not sure his understanding is that good being that he spends all his time with me. (DH works very long hours) All my friends here are English speaking and the in-laws are 3 hours away so DS actually gets very little exposure to Spanish, daft as it seems.

The in-laws are very concerned about this too and keep telling me how "será como un inmigrante" ahhh please... but that´s another battle story...

Thanks Franca - maybe DS will surprise me

Whoops, sorry I meant that the school might surprise you

Btw, I also wanted to add that I totally know how are you feeling, dealing with such a different school system is overwhelming. I was really apprehensive when ds started reception in the UK (we have now moved back to Italy)

Yes Franca I think that´s a big part of the problem, its a school system I know nothing about and that in itself is making me much more concerned. I feel right out of my comfort zone and I admit to having a bit of a hang up about being the PITA foreigner that asks silly questions... suppose I´ll find out about it first hand sooner or later....

Does your DH have a view about the Spanish system, i.e. semi-concertado vs state, and also whether DS is too young to go? Or is hw happy to go with your choice. Do you have any friends or family members with kids in school yet? My experience is that most of my Spanish friends prefer our semi-concertado because they feel it pushes the kids more. Those who think, like me, that there are more important things to learn at primary school are in the minority.

It is very difficult to find out about a new system before you're actually in it, I know. You have my sympathies as one just about to jump in!

Another one in Italy here. My DD started the scuola materna when she was a little over 3, I rarely took her in 5 days a week tbh as I thought it too much, nobody ever said anything. Not sure if they-d have the same lax attitude in Spain, but don-t assume you-d be obligiged to send your DS 9/5 5 days a week.

I'm in France and children enter the first year of école maternelle in the September of the calendar year they turn 3. DD's birthday is in November, so she was 2.10 when she started school.

The best reason for letting your DS start school in Spain is that if he stays at home he will have no friends as they will all be at school. You will go mad!

I'm in Belgium and my dd started Maternelle here at just 2.5. She loves it. Agree with others that it great for social skills, and making friends. Practically everyone puts their dcs in as soon as they are old enough, and it is considered to be a good foundation for proper school. At dd's school they have themes, the farm, baking - from the field to finished product, insects, the weather etc. They look at books, draw pictures, make bread, go on trips. Dd is developing a really good general knowledge about all sorts of things.

Last September (ie second year of école maternelle^) a few children joined DD's school who hadn't been to school in the previous year and it definitely made it hard for them to settle down.

Bebespain, I just wanted to say I'd get rid of that foreigner hang-up asap - it's important that you get the answers to your questions, especially for stuff as important as school choices and doubly so as a foreigner since it will all seem so strange.

I just smile very sweetly and explain that I come from a country where the system is different and so I don't really understand, and would it be possible just to explain xyz, or that I find it hard to accept the idea of xyz and would it be possible to make an exception etc - am always apologetic and pleasant about it but still make it clear I do expect answers.

When I enrolled DS1 we were unable to attend the pre-enrolment meeting as on holiday, and they thought it was very odd that I asked to meet the teacher before he started ("are you really going to choose a school based on the teacher? no, you can't sit in on a lesson to see what it's like, people either trust the school or they don't" etc). So I didn't get to sit in on a class (as is normal practice in NZ), but they did organise for us to meet the teacher.

clarice - DH prefers the semi-concertado and I know deep down if it wasn´t for me he would expect DS to go in Sep and that be that. However he has agreed over the wkend that DS is too young and my reasons fr him not wanting to go are valid ones.
I have a few friends with children already in Nursery full-time who will start school in Sep but because of this they don´t have the same issues in fact its better for them as they will save money!

BonsoirAnna - but do children who are 2 really need friends? I´m not beng difficult but I never really thought it was that important not until they get older that is...

Weta - Yes I do need to get rid of my foreigner hang-up a.s.a.p as its doing me no favours. I realise its all my own doing but have developed a bit of a complex about it lately....

Anyway I´ve just completed the application form Will find out whether we have a provisional place on 19th May, so will try to stop worrying until then ....