Where in the world has the best primary education?

[AdAstra]

Hiya
This is just rumination really, but I desperately want to live in another country with DS (3), for a number of reasons. Just wondering what experiences others have had of primary education compared to the UK? I'm thinking if Europe, but further afield would also be interesting to hear about. I grew up in South Africa and the UK and I definitely rate S-African primary education.

AA

If you want a fairly traditional emphasis on basic skills and a broad curriculum as kids get older, I would recommend Ireland. I grew up there in the days when people went to university, then emigrated to find work, and I was always amazed at how poorly educated a lot of people appeared to be when I lived in the UK for 20 year. (Obviously not everyone before you all start to flame me ).

I used to always say to people that "Ireland has a third world attitude to education", as in people could see that getting a good education was the best way to improve your situation in life (Ireland really was quite a poor country not that long ago) so education was really supported and valued by parents. I found England very lax in comparison when my boys went to school there. Obviously Ireland has changed massively over the years but my sister's three kids have just been through primary school and standards of education seem to have remained high.

that's really interesting. and I completely understand what you mean by 'a third world attitude to education'. South Africa has a pretty traditional model too, with emphasis on the basics, but they start at age 6 in your 7th year, so significantly later than here and there's alot of evidence to suggest that children really benefit from starting later.

However, part of the reason for wanting to emigrate (albeit probably not forever) is for DS to learn another language, and also cos im just so sick of British weather and pace of life and cynicism (again don't flame me! i know its not all cynical!). And i know at least one of those would be the same in Ireland...

AA

wel I have experience of education in Canada and UK and I rate UK higher.

Sweden seems to have a very good reputation at primary level at least... but they do not start formal education until children are 7... by the end of their first year in school Swedish children are generally ahead of their British counterparts who have been at school for 3 years longer

Says alot, really

France.

do not under any circs go to Germany, esp Bavaria.

Uk is really not bad, all things considering.

Germany, Sweden etc may have later starts, but their 6-7yo then go into proper formal education. No classrooms with Lego, home corners, trailing round parks to pick up autumn leaves, gardening clubs or African dancing or making necklaces there (all things my Reception-age child has been doing over the past term).

frogs, that all sounds fun. but also like stuff I'd like to be doing with my 5 yr old!!

I just think kids grow up really fast here and i dont know why that is.

i was thinking about france, sweden or spain i guess.

AA

Lots of info on the OECD website. I think the best are in northern Europe. And by the way all the things done ain reception in the UK are done in nursery schools in European countries where formal education starts at 6-7.

From personal experience of German kindergartens, they are nothing like UK reception/Y1 classes. 5 and 6yo are in groups with 3yo, and it's pretty much unstructured free play. Loads of parents are unhappy with what goes on in Gm KGs, and there's been lots of soul-searching in the press about educational standards too. Don't make the assumption of assuming it's all rosy elsewhere.

I wasn't particularly thinking of Germany, I'm trying to look for the list given recently by the OECD actually (I think scandinavian countries are at the top).
We moved back from the UK to Italy and I'm very happy that dd has another 2 yrs of nursery school ahead of her, with a mix of free play and more structured activities and in a mixed class, with no kewords to learn at 4 and a half.
And I loved ds's school in the UK, there were great teachers, and a lovely athmosphere. Just disagree with formal learning for 4 yrs old.

The French criticise their own system a lot and worry about teh standard of reading and writing coming out the other side. But I suppose most countries worry about this. France has changed primary education drastically this year. 24 hours total spread over 4 days (wed off). Much more emphasis on French and maths, means less science, history, géo etc. The teachers are revolting at the pressure to get better results in less time. So it's not all rosy here.

I love it though and think my kids are getting a great education (even coming from Ireland where I think it's great too).

I would say though that once they start at 6, there's no more games and toys, it's quite serious. The know they have to 'work' in school. Mine come home full of the joys though.

Our school is very helpful to young 'anglais' who arrive with little or no French, but I've heard some schools can be awful and ignore the child.

The idea of giving them another language is great, but for that the sooner the better. If you choose to go to France before your dd is 6 then I highly recommend the pre-school 'maternelle' here. Fab system.

Well the education system here in Italy would need a radical reform, but that is mostly for higher education. I think nursery schools and primary schools are fairly good and perform quite well (if I remember from that damn list which I cannot find). Ideally I'd mix bits of the Italian system with bits of the British one.

You'd need to keep an eye open on what is happening, if you're considering France.

Darcos (Education Minister) is rumoured by those in the know to be considering scrapping maternelle, which would be a serious blow.

Teacher training is also being reformed, not for the better. The system is currently pretty damn good given how poorly paid staff are and how little respect they get, but the future is not looking very rosy, I'm afraid.

The OECD rates Denmark and Germany highly, and Finland very highly, IIRC. But MNers with experience of German education don't seem to agree!

sandown isle of wight

another astra!

Doubt very much that the OECD rates German education highly but happy to be corrected. We were constantly bombarded there with media reports on the critical reports it received and the general feeling in Germany is that the education system is poor and needs serious reorganisation - which they are also investigating and working on but it will take some time IYAM. Routinely bodies criticise that the German system disadvantages immigrant children, that children are scared to go to school (84 percent last report I heard for Berlin), etc etc. No doubt there are good sides to it but I found the bad sides overwhelming and haven't regretted a second taking dd out of the German school system. What a relief that was!

Without direct experience of the countries and their schools, I believe that Swedish and Dutch primary schools are generally successful both in attaining academic goals and being warm, inclusive, friendly learning environments. I have heard good things about Norwegian schools. I'd imagine Danish schools are a similar case. However I don't know from personal experience what they are really like.

Tbh I doubt you will find anything like your African school experience in Europe. I went to a private primary school in Africa and both academically and socially it was an excellent experience. We fitted into the English system no problem at all when we went back but generally class behaviour was more disruptive (i.e. disruptive as opposed to the zero disruption in our old school), bickering in the breaks, name-calling etc - all things we hadn't encountered at school in Africa. We went to NZ for a couple of years when I was in secondary and I found the school there way behind ours in the UK and quite rough. Didn't enjoy the school experience there at all. In Sweden we went to International School for a couple of years, was fine.

Suspect that each country has some positive and some negative aspects to its school system and the trick is to find a place where the positive aspects are things really important to you and the negatives are things you feel you can work around. Good luck!

Sorry that was a bit long...

Don't think the British system is all good either. I would agree with Franca that 4 is too young. In Germany dd started aged 6 and that was early enough IMO

Franca what is primary like it Italy? Is there much violence in Italian schools these days and what subjects do they learn there in primary?

ZZZen, that is a difficult question to answer . Over all - with significant geographical differences (linked to the different socio-economic structure of northern - central - southern Italy) - I'd say that Italian primary school performs quite well.
The huge question mark is what will happen in the next yrs after the Berlusconi gov approved a reform that involves all sectors with significant cuts in the spending. I firmly oppose the reform, which will cut the daily hrs of teaching at primary school. As to now I don't know what ds will do at school in the afternoon next year .

No I don't think there is much violence in primary schools, but admittedly I have no direct experience of schools in areas with great sociological problems. Bullyism is certainly increasing in middle and high schools. Another problem is that in the last 20 yrs schools are less diverse, as there is the same phenomenon as in England with middle class parents moving to a cetrtain school etc.
Ds is in his first yr and they do literacy, math, geography, history, music and 2 hrs of religion , but you can opt out of it....

That was long, but I want to add that I was really happy of ds's school in the UK, but my ideal in the UK would have been the start of formal education at 6.

Dad was saying the other day I should look at opening my own school! Don't fancy dealing with all the discontented parents though

Secondary might actually be the big worry come to think of it. Not a good thought that

finland gets a good name

Always heard good things about Australian education, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps some of the Oz mumsnetters could shed light?

I wouldn't rate Australian education very high.

In my experience it depends on what state you live in - Australia.

so hard to generalise really, isn't it, on the basis of our own limited experiences, there is always so much variation within any country, particularly in countries with a federal state structure.

In many, many ways I do think Germany is a great place to bring up children because of all that is available to them, whatever their parents' income, in almost every area of music, sport, arts you can think of. I also find it in this respect a generally fair and decent kind of place. I found that to my mind the pastoral care was lacking and this seemed a widespread phenomenon of school life there, as did an acceptance of bullying as inevitable and the teaching seems to have been fairly ineffective judging by the comments of parents both German and foreign who I spoke to.

Very difficult I think to be accepting of education for your dc in an environment that is foreign to you, think our criticism is naturally heightened somehow, that we worry about it more.