German dp in the UK or people who moved their dc from Germarn to UK schools, can you give me some advice please?

[SSSandy2]

Hello,
we live in Germany at the moment and dd has attended school here for 1. and 2. Klasse but I am thinking very seriously about moving to the UK and I am unsure about the schooling there and how it compares.

Could you tell me what you found difficult to accept/things that bother or worry you about UK schools or the education system there generally? My own schooling is in the very distant past and I really only know from experience how schooling has been for dd here so not sure what we would be getting into if we moved her.

It would be a real help if you could be quite upfront and not too diplomatic about it because I really do want to weigh up the good and bad sides and try and find out where dd is most likely to thrive, longer term.

Thanks Frogs, I had never heard of dyscalculia. Will look into it. I see if she cannot be kept back a year, her first year in a UK school is going to be a challenge, keeping up and catching up at the same time. Your posts are always SO helpful, I would nominate you for an MN new year's award if they got one going.

I am just thinking these days thank goodness I did NOT become a school teacher when I briefly considered training for it. I taught adults for years and with dc I think I can do a great job if it's going smoothly but I haven't the patience for when dc struggle, there must be a different knack to dealing with this than with adults. I explain and try this and try that and make a game of it and then I feel almighty exasperation overtaking me in a fuzzy haze. If she's running, I love to open further paths to her and move her further but I feel like ramming my head into a wall when she struggles with maths, I really do.

Most of the time we get there at home without any tears and with regular daily work but I would love a school to take this off my hands

Hi strudel, maybe our schools are a bit similar. Well first I sent dd to a German school and she was fine with the language aspect there (100% German). When she became seriously unhappy there (other reasons), I took her out and moved her to the bilingual one, where being with other English speaking dc (I noticed) did her an enormous amount of good. I was quite surprised because she ahs been in German kiga/school since she was 2 and in some ways her German is more advanced than her English. For instance she slips up sometimes in English grammar but she doesn't in German. And if she transfers something from one language to the other incorrectly it will be from German to ENglish. She does not apply anything from English inappropriately to German production IYSWIM.

I think being around dc like her who were bilingual in E/D was something she loved. I don't know if she will see being in an entirely English language school a relief. No idea really. I suspect she will miss the German.

She does like German and she does consider herself German (as well as English). In the bilingal school, they were held back so much in German it was ridiculous and she hated those lessons because the level was so far below what they could do. She was already a fluent reader but all they got to do was read out simple sentences or write a line per picture in a picture story. She really wanted to do proper German but they weren't allowed to do more than that.

But Sandy, the point about the UK school system is that there isn't a notional 'target'. So she shouldn't have that trauma of needing to keep up and catch up, because they will put her into an ability group appropriate to her current level, and then she will gradually move to a level commensurate with her actual ability as she settles in and gets used to the work.

When dd1 was in Y3 (aged 7-8) there were a couple of kids reading Lord of the Rings and having opinions on Homer, and a hard core of kids at the other end who really couldn't read at all. At all. When that class was in Y6 (age 11), there were two kids who failed to achieve even Level 2 in the SATs, which is the level expected of an average 7yo. That was rather extreme, sure, but I think all but the most rural UK primary schools will have experience of kids coming in with little or no English, some of whom may not have much experience of formal schooling. Then will have dealt with kids with specific learning disabilities (Downs, dyslexia, ADHD) and kids with behavioural problems. In a good school these kids will all find a niche and will work to their level, given time and the appropriate support.

It's a whole different concept to the German system.

That's certainly true about there being huge variations in ability in one class. There is quite a lot of pressure on the pupils surrounding SATS though. A friend's dd was totally stressed by the testing in Y2. This surprised me because I thought SATS were more about testing how well the school is performing rather than having any huge significance for individual pupils. Here it seems to be the other way round.

I think the SATS is supposed to be about the schools but in order to get the results they want, the schools have to stress the pupils training for these. Haven't yet encountered it.

Thanks frogs. I'm really quite surprised how very different the approach seems to be. I suppose I naively imagined primary education would be pretty much the same through-out Europe. Has been quite an eye-opener.

Tbh I don't really know what I think of both systems. When I look around at German youth they do seem on the whole well-balanced, respectful, thoughtful young people and so I think the system cannot be entirely at fault. When I spoke to a friend about moving dd to the UK, she started telling me about teenage knifings, excessive bout drinking, gangs and all sorts of problems and she said she'd be scared to have her kids grow up there. It makes me wonder if the British system is really that great, why it is turning out so many young people who are in a mess.

Sound like dc might be happier in all but the more troubled UK primary schools but that teenage years are for some reason particularly difficult. Maybe that primary is less positive an experience for German school-children, but life seems more straight-forward for the older ones.

Failing to achieve the level of an 7 year old at age 11 doesn't sound good to me. I would have been freaking out if that was my dc. I think I am too pushy concerned a parent to be comfortable with that. Still I think (hope) all-in-all that system would make my dc happier and really I need to get on with other things (work) and let go of the schooling a bit , so I think we need to move her.

I know a mum here who is a trained primary school teacher from the UK, she has 5 dc and her 3rd was moved down a year this year. She has been pretty stressed out with it, very unhappy about the school's approach/attitude and I noticed where I was saying "OMG get this book, get that book, do 20 minutes of this and 20 minuts of that...." She was saying more or less it was OK that this was his level and that if she did anything she would play games with him.

I think I don't truly fit in either system! Help , here I come Moon Base Alpha I think

I think it all depends on which schools/areas/ young people you're talking about. Has your friend actually got first-hand knowledge of UK secondary schools?

I know loads of teenagers in a range of schools from super-academic to inner-city rough, and most of them are delightful. This is a rough-ish part of London. We live round the corner from a very very mixed but 'desirable' comprehensive, which certainly wouldn't be my first choice for my dc, but most of the kids there seem perfectly pleasant, and even the ones that are clearly aiming at the 'gangsta look' are more talk than action -- perfectly pleasant if you ask them to move so you can get past, for example.

Media reports would suggest that schools in rougher areas of German have similar problems to UK ones -- though maybe the fact that most of the more difficult and troubled kids are hidden away in a Hauptschule makes it easier for the Gm chattering classes to ignore?

But it wasn't my dc, Sandy, it was a couple of kids in the class with very serious problems. Dd1's learning wasn't affected at all, really.

Some schools are very pushy about the SATS, others are much more laid back. You need to find a school that has the kind of attitude you gel with. You don't have to personally get stressed about it -- loads of parents don't ime.

no no, I knew it wouldn't have been one of your dc, I can imagine you are on top of their schooling and know exactly where they stand.

It's really only by seeing what makes dd happy/miserable and by seeing what I do not like that I am starting to know what I expect/want from education. Dd is not really like me. I could handle a rigorous old-fashioned syllabus, she needs the challenge/interest but she is still a playful little kid.

For sure I want her to be high-achieving, well-read, well-informed, articulate - and also a nice person. I want a school to push her without stressing her with constant testing and I want a nice social environment. I want her doing interesting projects and being creative (I think that is who she is basically) but also definitely acquiring a solid base of factual information and good skills. I am not a fluffy, let's all throw wood carvings about for an hour whilst listening to Beethoven's 9th type person. I don't mind a bit of that kind of thing but not the major part of it.

What is very important to me too is that she is a responsible person who cares about developping countries, people less well off and so on. I really don't want some snobby school where the aim is to become a city worker and earn a great deal to spend on yourself IYSWIM. She isn't like that now and I wouldn't like her to become that way or preoccupied with throw-away trash culture. I would also hate a really red-neck, anti-culture environment. It will be quite hard to find that shcool I think. If I got the academic side, I probably wouldn't get the social side and v.v. I'm looking into it though.

Ah well, you know how it is, we want something that probably doesn't 100% exist.

Basically though, wishful thinking aside, I'd be happy with a local school where she goes gladly and is progressing well in a pleasant environment.

I would think if you are looking at somewhere like Cambridge you stand quite a good chance of finding a primary school that has significant numbers of parents who want pretty much what you're looking for, tbh.

My only observation would be that church schools tend to be a bit stricter and straight, so if you want real arty-liberal with lots of extracurricular, then a non-church school in a nice liberal intellectual area might be the thing. Certainly the Catholic schools devote quite a large amount of time to RE (think it's 30 mins a day, ie 2.5 hours a week) which the non-church schools seem to use for creative things. Actually ds's church school has been quite good on the creative front, though the music is a bit non-existent. But if you know that it's easy enough to make alternative arrangements.

Conversely, there may be a more cohesive community feel to a church school, since lots of the parents know each other outside school. And the two church schools my dc have been in were both very loving, supportive places -- not strict in a shouty sense, but more likely to have uniform, call teachers Sir and Miss, etc.

Thanks frogs, that's interesting about the difference between church schools and the others you mentioned and your own experiences.

Dd is quite a spiritual child although we have not pushed her down that track, so I think the religion classes would go down well, depending perhaps on how they go about it. That's one reason I initially chose the Catholic school for her.

However she is definitely responsive to creative art-based activities, in fact I think that is her little world which is why I toyed with Montessori for a while but I think although she would like it, I might not.

Take your point about her being part of the community in and out of school in a church school. Now that she no longer attends a church school (so religion one hour a week at school), she is doing quite a bit at the weekend in that direction, however we have been attending a non-Catholic church the past year where they have been fabulous helping me put her back together again. I am a bit torn atm.

Actually this is another thread but the religious side of things is something I will need to sort out for myself before I could place her in a church school.

SSS for what it's worth (and I will probably be shot down in flames if MNs outside of this thread read this!) we are notionally CofE (very much non practising) however DS attended an Austrian RC Kindergarten for 3 years and is now in a UK RC school.
In Austria the Kindergarten was our "local" and very well thought of and here in the UK I have to admit we decided to go down the private route at this stage. Taking that all into account I chose the school that "felt" right for us. The fact it is RC, is for us (take cover), neither here nor there. What it does do is tick all the boxes in terms of quality of education, standards, pastoral care, respect etc.........ohhhh, I just know I shouldn't have posted this .....or at least changed my name beforehand. having said that we're paying so why shouldn't we chose...For what it's worth my parents sent me to a RC school at age 4-5 (because it provided the best education) along with the local CofE vicars daughter.....

..and not sure that's remotely helpful to your particular problem any way....

SSS you will find quite a mix of nationalities in Cambridge primary schools (presume you are looking at the state sector at present rather than private) though you will find usual problems of over-subscribed good schools etc. I have a friend who transferred her sons from France to school in Cambridge area for Y1 and Y3 without great problems.

SSS we have some German neigbours who moved to UK in Mar and have put their son into Yr 2 of state primary (he spoke v. little English when he started) and they love it. He has told his Mother he prefers it to German school, less pressured etc.

interesting, thanks for the posts. At the moment lily, we are looking at private because our school experiences have not been good and we are hoping an independent school might be a better bet for various reasons. I'm not fixated on it, if I find a school that I like, the ethos/approach and the social side all seem right for dd , it wouldn't bother me too much whether state or private. Not really sure where to look tbh but am googling a lot these days.

Lapsed hven't found teh German school academically challenging as yet (think the non-stop testing begins next school year - year 3 so we haven't had it) but was stressful for dd in other ways (tone of social interaction etc).

Sorry that was garbled. What I meant lilymaid was that we want a very good education under good conditions which is why we are looking for private schools but not an elitist atmosphere or a place that encourages elitist attitudes amongst the dc.

DS1 went to the Perse in Cambridge - not elitist or snobbish but attracts the children of academics/medics and other professionals rather than the rich or posh.

That sounds good lilymaid. I will have a google for it. We are off on holiday now but I will check the thread when we get back at the beginning of September. THanks everyone for your advice!

I very much like what I read about that school Lilymaid. We have arranged to go and view it but I am not sure how easy it will be to get a place since there intake is at 7 and again at 10 and dd will soon be turning 8, so I'd imagine they would not have a place for her.

It's the sort of thing I had in mind. Thanks very much for the tip.

oops THEIR intake !

SSS - confusingly there are two Perse Schools in Cambridge to which your DD could go. There is Perse Girls and The Perse which was the boy's school. Perse Girls is girls only up to the age of 16 and from this year is mixed in the sixth form as it has changed its sixth form into a mixed college. The Perse, was boys only with girls in the sixth form, but has now opened the Prep school to girls (loads of building work has gone on) and the 11-16 part of the upper school will be open to girls from 2010 - when the first girls have gone through the Prep.
There are other good prep schools in Cambridge, in particular - St John's College School, King's College School and St Faith's and a number of their pupils go on to the Perse Girls or the Perse. As far as entry is concerned, it partially depends on demand. From my limited experience it is often possible to get one's child in even if it isn't in one of the specified years although the schools generally don't like to take new pupils in at Y6 (10-11).

oh I see, I googled and found the girls' school. (Dd does want a girls' school now after various negative experiences). I'll have a look at the others you mentioned. Thank you , that's a great help. Wish they had something even remotely similar where we live now