France or UK best for kids...?

[toddlerhip]

...education system, "socialisation" etc..?

France, every time. Unless you're a millionaire.

Well, that's what i'd thought, at least for the teenage years but some of the posts on the Do you live in France thread got me wondering?

France a million times better than UK for raising children, imho

why do you think so belgianchox? (I'm not arguing with you, have no means of making a comparison, just curious)

Erm, today I'll say France. But I have many days when I'd say the UK.

France definitely better in socialisation terms. BUT the education system definitely doesn't suit all children - it can be brutal and old fashioned and is very keen on conformity.

My opinion is that the huge difference is respect. Children in France are taught to respect themselves, other people....I have no children at school in the UK, only nieces & nephews to compare with so my view is a bit one sided. Castille is right, the education system can be old fashioned and doesn't suit all children - but compare a group of average teenagers in the UK with their peers in France.....

Well I can only talk about my personal experience and compare with how we might live in the UK, so here goes. In the UK there's no way we'd be able to have such an outdoors lifestyle.Here my kids are rarely inside, in the summer we are surrounded by beautiful lakes and parks, and in the winter they ski/sledge in the mountains.
Childcare provision is cheap and plentiful (thanks to heavy state subsidies), and in my experience (i've been here just over a year now), it's been of great quality too. Which means that I am at least afforded a choice as to whether or how much to work, something I dount I would have in the UK.
I can't talk much about school, my dd has just finished her first year at Maternelle, but so far so good, no complaints. I've no idea if it's better or worse than in the UK, but it suits us.
In more general terms I think that society here is less consumerist than in the UK, and just generally simpler. At least where I am that is the case, it's probably different in big cities.
I was born and grew up in the UK, but couldn't imagine going back to live there with my children. That's not to say I don't love going back for brief visits, and I do really want them to appreciate their english heritage.

Yes, I think many mums I have spoken with over here want a "best of both worlds" situation - I've become very traditional-english in our food habits for example! I really want them to keep that sense of "englishness" as well as benefiting from the great french bits as above...

That's so interesting. I have to say I find German teenagers a lot more sensible and tolerant of each other than I remember British teenagers being long long ago in my own secondary school days. I'm not enamoured of the school system here in Germany though, to put it mildly, yet I suppose when you see the teenagers, it may have something going for it after all. Interesting to read about France though.

Good luck making a decision toddlerhip!

outdoor life, cheap childcare, less consumerism, better food - all sounds good. We are looking forward to exploring...thanks all!

what nighbynight said

Agree with alot of the points - teenagers in France do seem generally 'nicer' for want of a better word. My children had a lot more freedom to be out and about by themselves - it felt safer. Fewer material pressures.

However - we have just come back to UK. My daughter was fine over there, but DS (who is dyslexic) did not get on in the school system. Much too rigid - a lot of rote learning etc, and they seem behind in their understanding and acceptance of different learning abilities and needs.

Also the subjects covered at primary level were very limited too. Pretty much just French and Maths - very little science, art, music, sport etc. I am sure different regions are different, but both my DCs feel they are learning more over here (other than french of course!).

Can not really comment on secondary level though.

I think some of the comments that got you wondering might have been mine....

I think it very much depends on where you are. Dh and I always told ourselves we would not have kids in the UK as we were both brought up abroad in places with much more outdoor lifestyles than is commonly available in the UK. For this reason we won't be going back.

I'm sure there are loads of schools that are good and friendly, but as others have said the system can be very focussed on conformism and rule following. The teachers are also constantly and very publicly complaining about their working conditions (Segolene Royale, the socialist presidential candidate, was thoroughly blasted for saying that it could be reasonable for teachers' working hours to be increased from the current 28 hour week).

Parents in schools in my area have shared some disquieting experiences. For example, one single mother, former domestic violence victim, decided when her ds started to learn English at school that she would try to learn with him (he was around 6 at the time), bought a method and started to go through it with her ds. She was called in to school, humiliated by the teachers who said she was teaching him 'wrong' and instructed to stop doing it. She didn't have the confidence to tell them to fuck off, so she did stop, and a few years on neither her nor her ds speak a word of English.

I could carry on, but I am aware that the plural of anecdote is not data. I am sure there are good, staffed with sensitive teachers, schools out there. I would check to make sure there is one like that where you plan to live though.

With regards to socialisation, I think there is again an issue of where you are. I would be worried about bringing up teenage girls here as the body obsession is a bit too much - you are bombarded with slimming advertising in every pharmacy, and the girls round here seem to be constantly on a diet (and often unhealthily thin).

For these reasons we've decided France is not it either -- but we have no idea where would be better so I'm not much help am I?

I know if you have 3 or more, economically France is a good place to be compared to almost any country in Europe.

No, that's all useful and interesting. Thanks ib. Thanks all.

Please tell me why France is good for 3 or more?
I've asked this before on here but noone took up on it (it was mid-thread)
Thanks

In France if you have 3 or more children you are considered a 'famille nombreuse' so you get all kinds of discounts on public transport, entrance to museums. I think you get proportionately more child benefit too. It stems from the government wanting to boost the birth rate.

Yes you get approx twice as much child benefit for 3 children as you do for 2, and the 3rd child qualifies you for quite a hefty tax break too.

When we first arrived our accountant told us the 3rd child is "free"!! - as mentioned above, you get so many reductions etc it's generally thought of as been worthwhile financially (we only had DS at the time and she asked us hopefully if we were planning more!)Certainly many of the families we know all have 3 children. But I'm sure I read recently that France is one of the only countries in Europe to have increased its birth rate without a great deal if immigration? So it seems to be working...

Agree with those posters who say that the education system in France is generally narrower and more rigid than in the UK, and less accepting of, and organised for, SN.

If you don't fit a standard mould, life can be hard here.

If you like conformity, probably much easier to get ahead here.

I've noticed that conformism generally in French life (although, paradoxically they have lots of 'characters'). It always seemed to me to be more pronounced in Paris & among women. Anyone got any thoughts on why the French are so conformist (i think the italians are even more so)? Is it just one of those inexplicable cultural phenomena....

1dilemma looks lovingly at dc3 and plans move to France