Learning English in a French state collège

[mangoamango]

Hi all,

I am English but have lived in France for 24 years, DH is French. Our son is 9 and we have brought him up to be bilingual, with his dad speaking to him in French and me speaking (mostly) in English. French is his main language but his English is quite good. He speaks to me and my family confidently, although he does make some mistakes, recently read the third Harry Potter book in English with no help and watches most films in VOST but will sometimes need some help to understand, especially if the people speaking have an accent he is not used to.

Our local state infant & primary school offers a choice between English or German as a foreign language so we signed him up for German when he entered CP. Our thinking was that the German classes are taught by a qualified MFL teacher, whereas English is taught by the main teacher. There was also a 'direct track' arrangement with the local collège and lycée so that kids who started German in primaire could carry on with german as LV1 all the way through to the Bac. DS was also keen to do German because his best friend since PS was doing it too.

Now he's in CM1 and so far, we haven't regretted our choice, especially when I've seen the work done in English by some of his friends. However, the Head of the local collège came to do a presentation for parents of kids in CM and he told us that they will no longer be offering German as LV1. All students will have to take English from the 6ème. Students who have taken German in Primaire will be able to carry on as an option if they wish.

My worry is that DS's level of English is going to be far more advanced than the level required in class and he is going to be bored 4 hours per week. Has anyone here had a similarly bilingual child take English at collège and how was your experience?

Sorry, that has turned out very long but I thought the context was important.

TLDR: DS is already fluent in English but is going to have to take English at collège. Looking for advice/reassurance from someone who has been through the same thing

The other round, French native tongue in an Australian school.
Of course, modern languages classes are not designed for native speakers, but still, doing the grammar and having to write was beneficial. Your son's comprehension might be high when it comes to reading and listening, but how often does he write a text down. Especially on a topic not of his choosing.
I complement at home a lot of learning, beyond French, be it geography, history and so on. So whichever homework he has will be done in a flash, and you can then give him some extra.
If German is still an option or not, is not clear from your post. You say: Students who have taken German in Primaire will be able to carry on as an option if they wish.

In the French system, being easily strong in one subject makes the workload a lot lighter. Mark my words and you will understand them in a few years.

I feel your pain. My ds was able to circumvent that by doing German instead of English in sixième and then added Spanish and Italian. He only switched back to doing English in premiere as a tactical measure. Dd who followed two years later and after the réforme was obliged to do English and was pretty bored until seconde/ premiere when they set up an advanced English class.
The upside was dd was quite happy to be unchallenged for 4 hours a week. It gave her some headspace. And they both are in at uni in Ireland with no lasting damage. Just keep him reading at home.

Thanks for replying.

He will be able to take 3 hours of German a week but as an additional option on top of the standard hours and meaning he won't be able to take any other options

Thanks for replying.

German then Spanish was our hope too but, alas, it is not to be. He's a very bright kid and has had any easy ride through primaire (there was talk of him skipping CE2 at the time but we decided against it as he is very young and wasn't emotionally ready) and we're very aware that he has a tendency to "gear down" when the work is too easy for him. His primary school is relatively small and his teachers have been very good about giving him more challenging work but he has spent a lot of his school time so far helping others catch up or reading on his own while the rest of the class work on something he can already do. I'm under no illusions about the workload of teachers at the collège and their ability to adapt like they can in Primary

The fluent Welsh kids at the local English stream school take second language Welsh (mandatory). It works out quite well, they just seem to do more advanced learning alongside the non Welsh speakers.

My worry is that DS's level of English is going to be far more advanced than the level required in class and he is going to be bored 4 hours per week. Has anyone here had a similarly bilingual child take English at collège and how was your experience? The simple answer is that he is going to be far more advanced and he will be bored. We put our DCs in a school with a native section for English (Paris) for this reason. It also had the advantage of reinforcing the fact that bilingualism was something to cherish (sounds obvious, but not always entirely clear to children who don't want to stand out from their friends). Otherwise he'll just have to suck it up (and be prepared for being taught English by someone who doesn't speak it as well as he does, but to try not to point that out as it won't go down well). To be honest, if he goes on to higher education in France this will be good preparation - DD currently in a Masters programme at Pantheon Assas with four hours of compulsory English a week. You can't avoid it, unless he decided to go to university in the UK, as my DS did, where no second language is required.

That pretty much confirms what I thought.

There are two schools with international sections in our city but one of them is VERY religious (compulsory church services on school time, parents have to have an interview with the priest to get a place) and the other one would take him over an hour to get to on public transport (and probably not much less by car at rush hour) so that doesn't really seem viable. I'm so pissed off because we looked into this before buying our house. I've always been opposed to private schools on principle so being in the catchment area for a state school with a specific German LV1 track seemed like a good solution.

Looks like we're just going to have to suk it up and keep an eye on him to make sure that he doesn't get too bored.

I think the problem in our case is that he's going to be the only child in this situation so the school doesn't have the resources for a two-tier system.

Personally I wouldn’t rule out a private Catholic school @mangoamango. Most private schools are Catholic in France, ours was, but it was inexpensive and the Catholic element was fairly minimal (it just had rather a nice ethos) - laïcité puts a tin lid on anything too extreme. I would at least go and have a look - there may well be a lovely English section which will allow your DS to “live his Englishness”, which is how our school put it. French school (French Bac) with English in English has served my kids well and given them options when they come out of the other end.

I know that some of them can be fine, in fact there's another private school near uns that seems OK (but doesn't have an international section) but this one is "hors contrat" and very closely linked to the church. Some of the kids my son was in crèche with went to their sister infant school and all but one of them have since moved back into state schools. I looked at their brochure when DS was starting school but couldn't get past mass every Friday morning, confession (not obligatory but highly recommended and attendance noted) 2 lunch times a week and special blessing ceremonies on the first and last day of each term.

We moved house for 6eme to a bilingual school for this very reason, otherwise the English lessons would have been pretty dull.

I don't know where you are but there are European schools dotted around France which are free and are more language based. Failing that lots of lycées have a European section where you can do the BFI and get lots of free points for your English.

It's worth saying that collège is pretty awful in general compared to primaire and lycée so if you can't get round the languages make a plan now for a good lycée.

Crikey! I see your point @mangoamango . I wouldn’t touch anything hors contrat either.

Languages panguages.
Some upsides as you were looking for reassurance

• totally free, imagine how much you are saving
• maths, french, structured essays, lab work and bio, chem, physics, geo, hist, coding, overall learning how to think and structure and memorise, all arguably more important
• nourish DC’s love of reading in Eng with no or minimum screens
• french will dominate and be thoroughly learned well, accentless and excellent grammar (without English taking over which it often does if mother tongue)
• easily helpful for brevet or bac to get 20/20 english
• may even occasionally be able to persuade for Permanence rather than in class (unlikely but not unknown)
• alongside you can do Bond books etc as if preparing for 11+ and 13+ to be sure grammar and spelling is excellent

Honestly, don't worry about it. Even the rather basic English LV1 will teach your DS spelling and grammar that isn't automatic for children who have never been schooled in English even if it's their mother tongue.

I wouldn't worry about it either. My dd had to study English in her French speaking high school. She still learnt some spelling and grammar and in fact we had some quite interesting conversations about English grammar - things I was never taught, but just "knew" as a native speaker. It will be easy marks too. She's still doing English as part of her Uni course, but just doesn't go to the classes.

TBH I have come across English bilinguals who avoided English LV1 right through French school and whose written English was really poor. Speaking English at home is not enough to develop biliteracy.

This is a very good point, although learning English grammar the French way may blow your parental mind even as your kids accept it as perfectly normal!

My DS is now nearly 20. He has been educated in a variety of French and Italian private schools. Some bilingual some not. Like your DS he is exceptionally bright. Navigating the education system was hard to make the the right choices for him . However he is now in one of the best engineering schools in France, doing prepa in a school that is incredibly difficult to get into. My thoughts...

Don't dismiss private Catholic schools. Mostly they are really good. No religious element at all during day to day schooling.. Unlike Italy . But still, in Italy they were very religious but still good educationally.

Most bilingual schools are awful when it comes to English. I learnt a long time ago that he would learn English at home. But they have to do it at school. It's unavoidable. Sometimes the teacher may say they don't have to attend lessons but they must do homework and exams.

DS actually enjoyed English. He liked speaking his native language for a few hours a week. He liked helping his mates. He liked it when the teacher would ask him to pronounce a word to show the rest of the class how it should be pronounced. It was a fun couple of stress free hours at school. When he was given the option to opt out of lessons he didn't. Now in prepa he finds it a bit boring but doesn't mind it too much.

Written English can however be a huge problem. His written English (from bilingual schools in France and Italy) was appalling until he spent a year in Parisian bilingual school with excellent English teachers.

Your son is French really. So is mine despite having English parents. You want him to be fluent in English but I learnt early on that comes from home when you live in a foreign country. Not school. Written English you may have to help him a bit.

International schools in my experience are really a jack of all trades and master of none. Full of kids who really can't speak English well.

We had to take the decision of French or international school at college level. I always thought that French school was better as he would have a really good command of both languages. He could then pick later in life where he wanted to go to university and later to work. In your situation I would absolutely go for the French school. Don't touch anything hors contract

It's served my son well doing what we did. We thought about it very much at the time but it was still a bit of a gamble. He is doing engineering at grande Ecole. In prepa at the moment. There is a huge emphasis on English which is obviously very advantageous to him. But all teaching just now is in French. I don't think he could have coped with that had he been to an international school rather than a French school, public or private. LV 2, German, Spanish whatever goes right out of the window post Bac. Don't let that influence your decision. DS is trilingual, (French, English,Italian). He never uses Italian. Your son sounds as though he will be doing prepa post Bac, French and English are the only ones of importance then.

If you think this is bad wait until you get to post Bac. Bloody nightmare.

Good luck . I think the French education system by and large is really good but it can be really difficult to make choices sometimes.

Native English speaker DS in 1ère in a sous contrat private school. LV1 is English, LV2 Spanish. Also doing LLCE Anglais and DNL History/Geography in the European section. If anything, he can't get enough education in his native tongue - he laps it up and isn't bored at all.

They did Cambridge International at his collège, so he has an iGCSE in English as a native language. That was taught in addition to LV1 English.

He still makes the occasional mistake in English even so, because everything else is taught in French and he has been in French school since CM1. He makes up words or gets grammar/phrasing (especially prepositions) wrong.