Southern European living

[Whereto3]

Dh is of Italian origin and in many ways more culturally aligned with Southern European culture. He often talks of moving to Italy or Spain some day (has EU passport) and I'm not necessarily opposed to it but I also wonder if maybe these countries are great for holidays (food, weather etc) but the actual reality of living there would be different.

I can imagine lifestyle is more relaxed and family friendly but what about job opportunities and health or school system? I also wonder what climate change could do to the weather in Europe over next 15 years and how that might affect things.

Anecdotally I've heard things from friends and colleagues over the years such as:

Spain school system isn't great. One colleague moved back to the UK so kids could be schooled here

Italy is very sexist, especially in the South and not really a meritocracy so hard to progress in jobs if you don't have connections.

Limited jobs opps. One friend works in Madrid and said her high paying comms role is one of only a few and not much else in market so shes basically trapped in same job now she has DC. Here she had a lot more choice.

I know the above are huge generalisations and people will have different views and experiences but interested to hear from people with direct experience

Anyone?

Maybe try on the Living Overseas board, OP?

I live in south central Europe, but not Spain or Italy, so can't comment specifically about school system etc. Broadly, I would say it depends how much you are up for rolling with the challenges/adapting to the ways it will be different. If that excites you in itself, it can work.

I’ve certainly heard from Italians that you just don’t stand a chance of a good job if you don’t have connections.
One Italian BF of a dd also said that in an Italian workplace you are judged very largely on your clothing - he said they will eye up/assess the brand/cost of everything you have on, ‘even your belt’.

I thought he must surely be exaggerating, and later asked a young Italian colleague of dh, who said no, it was absolutely true.

I'm in Italy and yes, the job market is tricky but plenty of people seem to manage. I wouldn't really say it's laid-back though. The school system is a mixed bag. My oldest is now at uni and I'm glad he doesn't have exorbitant fees and the quality of teaching is good. The health system is tricky. I pay more here than I would in the UK but the quality is good imo.

Hello there, @Whereto3. As requested by you, we've moved your thread to the Living Overseas topic.

Hope that helps.

Gosh this really puts me off - the idea of being judged so much on clothes! I don't even wear a belt!

Lived abroad when a student in Italy and Spain for short period and enjoyed it then but certain things did grate on me. I found Italy quite sexist although I was in deep South.

Now I'm older and more established in uk I think it would be harder to drop everything unless I could do early retirement

I used to live in Southern Europe when I was young. And the issues I can think of:

• the heat: it was bad enough when I was there a decade ago or so but with global warming these places are and will become hotter. Can you cope with that?
• sexism
• nepotism: jobs were handed out because of connections in many instances rather than a fair recruitment process
• language: you need to be able to have a good grasp of another language if you want a good job and to be able to handle the bureaucracy
• Being far from your extended family and friends
• Most places do have a better health service than the NHS though.

I think people have an ideal view of life in the sun but you also need to look at it without the rose-tinted glasses.

I would never move back I must say.

Could you compromise and try to get a holiday home/flat somewhere that you could visit regularly?

I think holiday home is way to go if we get to that position financially one day. The we can retire there too if we wanted to

I do worry about the heat/ global warming as summers seem very extreme. Everyone loves to moan about UK climate but I actually like our mild weather as no big extremes to deal with

I lived in Italy for eight years and there are no job opportunities apart from teaching English which pays terribly. The summers are blisteringly hot. They are obsessed with the beach which wasn’t my thing, you are expected to go every weekend in summer if you have Italian friends, they won’t consider anything else. Which is fine if you love the beach. If you’re married and with a family it won’t be as bad but as a single woman the men can be pretty unpleasant. Everything is about the ‘Bella figura’, you have to be seen to look good, to do everything a certain way, to present yourself to the world in a certain fashion. They freak out when Americans have a cappuccino after a meal, too much milk on the stomach. I mean I wouldn’t drink it but it doesn’t bother me if someone else does, and it doesn’t just bother them they get seriously affronted by it!!! You’re weird if you don’t do things their way, they were seriously bothered by the fact I don’t eat fish or like the beach it was bizarre. The bureaucracy is a nightmare too. But that was just my experience :-) I miss the food, I miss the light in spring and autumn and being surrounded by beauty but I wouldn’t go back. I met and married a man who isn’t italian but from a hot country with a similar mentality and he prefers it here.

I have friends who've recently returned to the UK after having lived for 24 years in Spain. They've returned because they had a huge finca and land and it got too much for them. They lived just inland from a popular stretch of coastline. I've visited innumerable times and met their Spanish neighbours and friends and the talk is always of the difficulty of finding well-paid work and the fact that their young people have to move away to start careers. The summers in southern Spain were brutal and they used to come to the UK and stay with family and friends in August.

I know I would struggle with the language. There's a huge difference between being proficient enough to manage on a day-to-day basis and being able to really communicate in depth with native speakers. I think that meant for my friends who lived there, and spoke the language well but not like a native, that they found it difficult to make deep friendships and were stuck at a sort of polite, superficial level. But with video calls and the ability to WA anyone anywhere, that kind of thing isn't quite so important.

Friend of my son's moved to Italy last year - I've been told he gets 5 year tax break! He has set up a hedge fund, managing it from there!

I live in Spain. I’m going to tell you the negatives - unless you live in one of the big cities it’s pretty difficult to find work unless you want to work as a teacher (terrible pay) or in a bar/restaurant if you live in a tourist area. The school system is old-fashioned and extremely stressful for children with constant exams and pressure, but actually for how difficult it is a fairly low level of education and lack of jobs at the end. It can be very difficult to integrate too. My DH is Spanish, so for me it was easy, but I read on a lot of forums about people just hanging out with other foreign nationals and never really making any Spanish friends. There is also another major factor, which has only got worse in the last few years I’ve lived here - a growing anti English feeling. Spain has always had its problems with racism, especially against Moroccans and the Latin American community, but there is a growing feeling of xenophobia against British and Americans. Many people blame us for the rising rents etc, because of the digital nomads and retired people driving up rents and house prices. The bureaucracy here is also something difficult and frustrating to navigate too.

Positives - it’s a safer place to bring up kids. Spanish teens have a lot more freedom than British kids, because it’s safer here. The weather is a bonus, but the summers are really too hot tbh. Spring and Autumn are great. If you lived further north, you’d escape the unbearable summer heat. Life is simpler and less hectic. You may or may not find that to be a plus, as the constant activities British people do with their kids to keep them occupied aren’t the norm here. People spend a lot more time doing a lot less and feel content doing that. There are many places to visit and travel to without having to leave the country, so lots of opportunities for cheaper short trips etc.

I'm not in Southern Europe but in Western Europe in a non-English speaking country. Many of the comments made about Southern European countries are exactly the same as here!
-difficult to get a job outside teaching and hospitality if you don't speak the native language. Due to Brexit it's very difficult to get a visa here if you're British and not sponsored by your company or EU spouse.
-school system very different to UK in secondary. very test orientated and streamed from secondary (there is no such thing as comprehensive secondary education here)
-healthcare is better/shorter waiting lists but no NHS so I have to pay through my health insurance
-difficult to make connections in the short term if you don't speak the native language and many expat families only socialise with other expats (I find this particularly true of English speaking families who are less likely to learn native language/progress in their language learning quickly)
-we visit the UK 2-3 times a year and my parents are usually over once a year but the rest of my siblings have only been twice in 15+ years (once for our wedding)- COL crisis means travel is even more expensive and Brexit has led to longer travel times. Living here during pandemic was really really hard (not being able to travel back easily and see family).

While we don't have the same issues here re: nepotism/focus on style/fashion/climate, I think many people underestimate the difficulties that language can cause. Not speaking the native language is isolating and limits your social and professional opportunities. I've been here for 15+ years and I'm still not fluent.

I also work in an international school and I would not put my kids through any kind of international move as I know they wouldn't cope moving to another country/being uprooted, especially if another language was involved (my kids have SEN whihc may influence how I feel about this).

I'm in southern Italy.
Can only echo what's already been said really.
Life here is a lot more expensive than most people think. At a family lunch yesterday I showed them how much actual Italian brands cost in UK supermarkets (slightly cheaper than here, go figure) and they were gobsmacked.

Healthcare is brilliant. At a price. I can directly WhatsApp my lovely GP 24/7 but beyond bogstandard prescriptions you're immediately referred to specialists and have to pay a "ticket" when you're seen by one. Not private, then you'd pay a lot more obviously. For example, DD has a test to rule out asthma tomorrow. That will be €38. OTC meds cost a lot more than the UK. Eye tests are more expensive here unless you go to the state ambulatorio service. I don't know anyone who does. Dentists again are almost all private, but you're spoiled for choice. DD is about to have her braces removed and it will have been about £3000. (every time she goes I pay €100)

Schools are great, if the child is academic. Mine is, it's the luck of the draw.

She's now at uni in the UK as we couldn't have afforded uni here. She'd have had to stay at home and go to the local one.

By June it's humid and very very hot. I go to the UK to work to escape and earn some money.

Rents in a medium sized town are about the same as a similar sized town in the UK Bills are higher.

Jobs for foreigners are non existent as above unless you start off in ESL. I did, and am now an ESL teacher in a state school. I'll never have a permanent contract though. I'm hourly paid and it's effectively zero hours.

I’m italian living in Scotland and Ill go back when I retire (maybe for 6 months a year to start with) still have a long way to go as I’m 40,I moved to Scotland for my partner so it’s fair enough he would do the same for me.
Reason why I would not move now is because of the job market and my partner will never find a job as good as the one he has here.
I’m from the north and I would say that the healthcare system is better in Italy. The railway system is very good (I went from Venice to Milan in 2 hours with a high speed train and spent 35euros). I miss the many things I could possibly do every weekend, like going to the beach in sunmer or to the mountains or going to visit different cities. (Just for reference I live in the Highlands and I’m 3 hours away from Edinburgh) Schools are very academic and are actually hard, I did an Hnc here Scotland and I could compare it to middle school level in Italy.
Everything they said to you is actually true.
Move when you retire, that’s my suggestion

Oh yes, I forgot the trains ❤️

I have been living in northern Italy for 20+ years, came after uni.
my advice is to only come here if you are pretty much fluent in Italian, or don’t want to work (it’s perfectly acceptable to be SHM here, I’d say even preferable).
I found work because I was British but you still need to read write and speak a very high level in Italian. And work is very frustrating for a woman, it’s more difficult to get ahead.

all was fine though, until I had kids as the school system is very different and very hands on for the parents (read mums). They have loads of homework from about Year 4 primary onwards. The middle/secondary school is good for academic kids but can leave others behind.

and there are loads of unsaid rules (as someone said about cappuccino after dinner) so I would recommend holidaying here instead of moving. That way you get all the good stuff without putting up with things that are difficult for Brits.

Hi, moving to another country (any country!) requires to be willing to learn the language first of all and embrace its culture otherwise it's not going to work.
I don't know Italy that much but I'm Spanish and I can tell you that the school system in Spain is brilliant. Of course it won't work if your kids don't speak Spanish and/or depending the area that you are thinking on moving also the regional language.
There are always British schools that follow both the English and Spanish syllabus and give acces to Spanish and British universities. British schools are all private but Spanish universities cost a fraction of the price than the ones in the UK so maybe investing on primary/secondary schooling will pay off when your kids are older and go to uni. Plenty of degrees in Spain are now told in English.
Both medical systems in Spain (estate and private) are outstanding. You will be pleasantly surprise. Plenty of dentists to choose from to also....
The weather is very different depending on the region. It's not all sun and beach, paella and sangria...😜Spain is very diverse, with and incredibly rich history and culture... Landscapes that go from dessert to very high mountains. It's an amazing country to experience and an incredible place to live.
Moving countries is never easy and it's not for everyone.
Good luck!

I am Italian /English and my husband is Italian. I was educated in England, he in Italy. The state schools are generally excellent in Italy and very well regarded, they are tough academically and those who are more academic usually remain in the state sector and those who cannot cut it are sent to the private schools which generally are easier/more forgiving. So as you can see, quite different to the U.K. culture and state vs private/independent.
Universities are excellent in Italy and some are very well regarded globally - some are the amongst oldest in the world such as Bologna and Padova.

In terms of jobs, it varies greatly on sector. If you work in a vocational sector a good job can be found anywhere. I would say if career is important consider a move to somewhere like Milan but not necessarily cities further south, where people tend to enjoy life and put less importance on career (more for industries such as finance). Of course, Milan based companies have a strong work ethos and more competitive salaries. In cities further south, even Rome, there are opportunities for interesting jobs but not so much to make a ‘career’ and certainly less ££ than U.K. Nepotism is definitely still going strong in Italy however you can still of course get a job the standard way, it may just take a bit longer.

i wouldn’t say sexism exists so much in the Rome and further North of Italy. Both men and women have good careers and opportunities.. in the very South yes, it does still exist a bit but not necessarily always in a negative way.. men just can be more ‘traditional’, may expect their wife to cook, clean, look after the kids, they won’t touch a nappy.. but then there are plenty that are much more modern too!! Especially now more and more. It’s impossible to generalise. Also on the upside the men are very romantic and know how to make life feel exciting..

The weather, sunsets and natural beauty all around mean you or your kids won’t need much to be happy, young people/teens are generally much better behaved and find joy in everyday life. They can easily go to the beach in the summer, mountains in the winter , they are surrounded by art and beauty and grow up with culture instilled in them.

Also meant to add private and public healthcare is generally v good in Italy, and the family doctors are also very good

Hi as username says living the dream in Spain 🇪🇸

Not from England myself but husband is English, lived in Costa Blanca for almost 20 years now, two kids and one thriving business later I will add my two pennies 😅
Spain is good and bad, like any country.
Health and education are good overall. Have given birth to both children here, although in private hospital. This was amazing and just like a 4 star hotel..

Here in Spain you cover your whole family in health insurance for 200 euros a month and have a access to top notch hospitals and care 24/7/365. Even without private healthcare hospitals in our area are amazing.

Schools are are a bit hit and miss. We've had one child in private school and one in public for different reasons. Both really good, and affordable compared to the UK.

The main factor for earning possibilities is having the guts to start your own business in Spain/Southern Europe. Without it, you will be forever earning minimum wage in a bar. All our friends that has lived here 20 years+ have their own business..

You need to have special skills and start up by yourself in something that services the tourists. This is the only way to live really confortable in Southern Europe. The Spanish are certainly not going to give a foreigner a job with great salary/benefits so you have to make your own 😀

We will never go back to our respective countries. Might travel out of Spain during summer when we sell our business in a few years. Apart from that we love our lives here ❤️