Moving from the UK

[Ethny]

Hi everyone!

After my kid was born I understood it is "now or never" and moved with my DH to Scandinavia. For me it was an absolute match but not for him. We both had good jobs, our DD was thriving in a nursery. But my DH felt trapped there. It was too boring for him (I need to say we moved in the middle of pandemic and all those restrictions were in place). No major sports events, "glass ceiling" in salaries, limited job market, we didn't have family there and nannies or babysitters are so expensive there, new language. The only problem that bothered me was that I felt isolated. However, I know that proper integration takes time. I loved how small, safe and beautiful was the city we lived in and it was a capital. It took me 20 mins by tram to go to the office. Childcare was amazing. We prefer colder summers so the weather never bothered me.

So after a year in Scandinavia my husband got a job offer in London and we moved. It is a big career step for him and we live in the nice area in the SW. Our kid is fully integrated and prefers English now. But I feel that I don't fit. Crime levels and social inequality make me anxious. Childcare is so expensive and I'm not sure that I am a fan of educational system here (starting school at 4, year 6 exams, independent vs public schools). Housing here drives me crazy as it is so expensive but so tiny and old. However, people here are nice, we have plenty of new acquaintances, a lot of things to do, we have decent jobs and can afford occasional babysitter.

We are close to the school age of our kid and soon we can apply for a mortgage. And I just don't know what to do. Stay here in the UK, accept its good parts and forget about relocation. I afraid I wont be as happy here as I could be somewhere else. Or try to move again but that means new language for my kid, new socialisation struggles and few more years before we can apply for a mortgage in the new country and who knows maybe my DH would be not happy again.

If we move again it would be Netherlands or Scandinavia again. Moving back to our home country is not an option.

If someone moved several times with kids, or regret moving from the UK, or happy about the move from here - please comment

I’m not London bred but lived there for 17 years(zone 2 Queens Park)Currently living in the Netherlands. All the positives and negatives of London that you wrote is accurate.
Here standard of living is high, well paid jobs, organised, clean, predictable.

As a people( this is my opinion so not a sacred fact) they lack resilience empathy and the willingness to think outside the norm. They have a saying
“Doe maar gewoon, dan doe je al gek genoeg” which means “act normal that’s crazy enough.” This to me speaks volumes.

Lacks spontaneity and naturalness geographically speaking. It’s third most populated county in the world so actually it’s overpopulated therefore every piece of land is planned and structured. Not my kinda thing. Many expats love it but am Italian so I miss nature’s beauty food and good weather

On the plus side you’re in the middle of Europe and can easily travel to Scandinavian countries orto places like France Belgium Germany etc. They speak English well I believe they’re the best in Europe in terms of fluency

Not sure about schooling here as my dd is only 20months. Childcare is cheaper than UK. The day after they turn 2 they can start preschool so 2/3 mornings or afternoons sessions and you pay according to your household income. If they’re from a multilingual family the local council pays 1day extra where the focus is the language.
My dd holds triple nationality Uk/Italian/Dutch and I hold Uk/Italian so we could live in either UK or Europe and for the future for her if she decides to study at University the fees here are a fraction of the Uk

My whole family is in the Uk so I miss that and little things like a corner shop open at 1 am if say I needed salt. Do I regret leaving? I can’t say. Do I like the Netherlands no. I’m too much of a thinker for the mentality here
Two places I would prefer to live in are Italy and France. Atm they’re not options.
i try not to be sentimental about these things.

@Gioia1 Thank you! This is what I'm afraid. To move third time, to make my kid learn fourth language (she is tri-lingual now) and to understand that it is not what I was looking for. You said after kid turns 2 they can attend nursery 2/3 sessions a week. Could it be a full week? Is it common?

your child learning a fourth language at this age is only a positive. Am a polyglot myself and my daughter will eventually speak 4 languages fluently including Frisian just through immersion.

Yes children can go full time to kinderopvang from as little as 6weeks old it’s up to the parents but that’s not subsidised by government. From 2 yrs onwards it’s subsidised only for set hours. A bit like the 15hrs free Uk nursery. Outside that you need to pay but it’s not as expensive as Uk.

Focus I believe should be on you and your dh as at this age your dc will thrive if both of you are thriving mentally and emotionally. It’s different if it’s teenage years.

@Gioia1 sure, but for us to be focused on our wellbeing both emotional and material (I mean career) we need to have reliable childcare)) What about nannies? How popular it is to have one with a second baby for example? I would say it is quite common for middle class in London but not in Scandinavia.

Having a home helper is common amongst internationals (ie. no family nearby) in Scandinavia. Either an au pair or a paid nanny. Childcare is very cheap from about 3 months old, and very good IMO. Scandinavia is nice, and I agree with you TBH about what you say about the UK, but it can be very isolating as your DH experienced. Ah, it's a difficult decision for you. I had young kids in Scandi and back here now for high school age. I love Scandinavia and will return once they have flown the nest but I can easily see your DH's perspective too.

Childcare or nanny is not a problem here. Many expats have nannies especially in the bigger cities. Mothers have only weeks paid maternity leave so childcare in any form is pretty normal

@newstart1234 , my kid spent a year in Scandi kindergarten and it was fabulous. But at least where I was it was not popular to have a nanny. None of my husband's or my colleagues had one. Same about our friends. And that's completely opposite here in London. But every person has different experience I suppose

@newstart1234 Why do you think UK is better for older kids than Scandinavia? I see how it could be better if kids go to good independent or grammar schools that could prepare them for top Universities though.

I can imagine the childcare in London is very different. The only people I know in London with kids have nannies because the childcare is so expensive they might as well have a nanny rather than go to a different setting. For the first few weeks or months lots of international new parents have home help of some kind where I was in Scandi. When the parents return to work though yes, using a daycarer is the way people go.

I wanted my kids to have an experience of their own culture, study shakespeare/austen/brontes/golding etc etc. The syllabus was a bit restrictive and not ambitious culturally or academically. Perfect preparation probably for life in Scandinavia but not broadening the mind imo. Also I grew up in three different countries and firmly believe that it is a great advantage because it helps give a deeper awareness of different perspectives, plus its humbling - you realise more your ignorance and improves tolerance - it seems a bit of a stretch now ive written it down but, well, that's at least what I believe for me. As great as scandinavia is, it's hugely beneficial to see the world in a different way too. Plus, the grandparents are getting on and we really want to be more available to them.

@newstart1234 we had nanny while I was doing interviews and we were waiting for a nursery place. But some mamas from our nursery especially those with 2 kids have nannies part-time in addition to part-time nursery. Just because drop-off pick-up could be challenging if you need to commute for work, plus nanny does some house chores.

Yes, being exposed to multiple cultures benefits kids. I see that even with toddler. I simply don't know how to make this decision "should I stay or should I go"

Honestly this isn’t something I worry about ! We travel loads with our daughter and we’ve moved heaps of times

I don’t think we will ever settle anywhere tbh we are fine with that - but guess it’s not for everyone

i don’t really care too much about what school she goes to either she just will go wherever we live at that time. its Just not something I get concerned about really.

@Fupoffyagrasshole Does your kid attend international or local school? How long it takes for her to learn new language?

One thing to possibly consider is that it is the norm in most (all?) of Scandinavia is for mothers to work full time, whereas in the Netherlands most mums to work part time, even once their kids start school. If you'd love to work four days a week from 9-3, then the Netherlands is the place to be. If you want to work full time and develop your career, you'll be able to do that, but anticipate the occassional question or raised eyebrow.

For what it's worth. I moved to Scandinavia during the pandemic. The first year was difficult. It is easier now that all activities and events are back on. However, some of the things you mention (top salaries being lower than in the UK) are true regardless. I think it ultimately means in what you (and DH) prioritise in life for you and your child.

If you're career-oriented, then the UK is possibly better. Low-paid jobs are better paid in Scandinavia, but high paid jobs attract higher salaries in the UK than in Scandinavia. From what I hear Scandinavian schools don't push their students as much academically. Personally, I appreciate that - I think it is one of the reasons why Scandinavian (and Dutch) kids tend to be much happier than British ones, there's less of a competitive element to schooling, less pressure to do well in tests, etc. However, if you want your kid to go to Oxbridge then a UK independent or grammar school makes much more sense.

Assuming you are British, one thing my friend said when I couldn't decide whether to make the move from the UK to Scandinavia is the UK will always be there. Is it ideal to uproot your family multiple times? Possibly not. But if you go now and decide in 5 years that you miss the UK too much, you can still easily go back, whereas you might be more relectant to move from the UK to a foreign country in 5 years' time. So maybe now is a good time to give it one more go?

As for the language: I can't speak from personal experience but know people who have moved with kids who were anywhere from 1 to 9, and even the 8/9 year-olds managed okay in their new language after a few months and were pretty fluent after a year in a local school.

@Ethny I'm not British so my kid who speaks our native language at home learned (and already forgot) some level of Norwegian, now she is fluent in English (and even prefers it) but she is young enough to loose this skill if we moves to another country where she won't use it. It is a bit complicated as we need to think about visas and permanent residencies and all this stuff. However both DH and I are blessed with jobs so we can choose where to relocate.

As you said schooling is such an interesting topic. I was not concerned about it in Norway at all. If she chooses not to go to uni - that's ok. She can have decent life in Scandinavia without being incredibly career focused. And after all I saw a lot of older students in Norwegian universities. And a lot of people who started new career after 40. So I was super chill. However in the UK I feel constant pressure. Maybe it is purely in my head. But I've spent dozens of hours researching state schools, independent schools, secondaries, etc. And I heard that Netherlands have this 11+ exam too.

My biggest fear is that I will relocate 3rd time and regret it. My kid will fill anxious about new language, she'll feel excluded because she is a foreigner, we will end up in a bad school as we'll relocate after her 4-5 years without language. And my husband will find it boring. Because life in the UK is not bad for us as a family at all. People are nice, weather is nice, language is not a problem, decent career. But a lot of things make me anxious here. Schooling, crime, housing, social inequalities. I miss how chill (although a bit lonely) I was in Norway

IMO whether your child feels anxious about the language and being a foreigner will depend mostly on their own character. Some kids find it difficult and some not - rather than their age or the place they move to.

FWIW my kids, who were born in scandinavia, were known at school as being the 'british children' even after being there 10 years. They will always be outsiders but they seemed OK with that (they may have have a different perspective if the were not white and native English speakers).

I'm not quite understanding your take on NL, in my - more limited - experience, the NL has very many of the same problems as the SE of england, like impossible housing market, overcrowding and crime. The kids do seem chilled though.

Full time workers in Denmark with children generally work 8 - 2.30/3.00, so that's similar to part time elsewhere. Danes have the shortest working hours in the EU I think.

Difficult conundrum though, however, your DH not being keen to move seems like the biggest barrier.

@newstart1234 Moving to NL wont require looking for a new job. Our companies allow that. Plus job market in Netherlands is quite decent in our field. That's it.

@newstart1234 yes, I can relate, I worked in Norway mainly 8-30-3-30. Oh how I loved that. The opportunity to pick your kid from the kindergarten together with your partner (no one needs to work extra) and spend evening without your laptop. Or maybe meet a friend at 4 after the work and be at home right before the bath time as commute is 20 mins or so.

Aah I understand.

It's the tranquility I love. The peacefulness. Like I said, we are planning on returning at least part time once ours have flown the nest and we've kept our house with that in mind. FWIW I don't think they would lose the English language, the kids round us used english daily from age 7 or 8, but I understand your concern.

Have you considered moving elsewhere in the UK? We are in the NE and the houses are cheaper and less overcrowding. I don't know about crime much, but it doesn't feel like a crime hot spot. York is a great place to raise children :)