Secondary school in Germany

[givememarmite]

Anyone else in Germany and currently deciding on which secondary school to send their DC to?

We are a bit stuck between a Gesamtschule in a different town (not guaranteed to get in) and a Gymnasium very close to home. Just thought it might be nice to have a chat with others in this situation

We're not quite at that stage, yet. DS will only start school in the summer.
I'd be interested to know why you are considering a Gesamtschule (integrated or streamed?), though. I teach at an independent school and most of the parents seem to be of the opinion that their child needs to go to a Gymnasium at all costs, even if they are completely unsuited to the academic rigour expected there.

Our daughter started year 5 in a gymnasium last September. Our son will probably go to an Integrated Gesamtschule but is currently still in year 3. Where we are, applications from out-of-town do not get accepted.

I don't live in Germany but am familiar with the school system. Surely everyone wants their child to go to a Gymnasium? Also it's closer to home?

where are you? school is organised differently in the bundesländer and in some you don't have a choice.

my niece is in niedersachsen and in her town are 2 gesamtschulen. one with focus on realschulabschluss (gcse) and fachgymnasium (technical abitur) the other with focus on gymnasium & 'normal' abitur.

@Dizzyhedgehog

We're not quite at that stage, yet. DS will only start school in the summer. I'd be interested to know why you are considering a Gesamtschule (integrated or streamed?), though. I teach at an independent school and most of the parents seem to be of the opinion that their child needs to go to a Gymnasium at all costs, even if they are completely unsuited to the academic rigour expected there.

I guess I should have been clearer and said that we would be applying to the Gymnasium stream in the Gesamtschule. We just had a much better impression of the school, they also offer bilingual English for a couple of subjects whereas the gymnasium close to us offers this in French. But it is exactly for the reason that I think DD may struggle in gymnasium and I wonder if it would be easier to be in a Gesamtschule where she could move to the Real stream if she really had to rather than having to change school completely if she doesn't cope at the Gymnasium.

We are in Hessen so have the final say rather than the recommendation of the Grundschule being binding.

We are also in Hessen so I understand your thinking. As you get two choices can you not put the Gesamtschule first and Gymnasium second?
The pressure to achieve is what would be the knock-out criteria for my son. He does not thrive under pressure but needs a more explorative approach to learning. My daughter on the other is very academic and suits the more classical approach of the gymnasium.

Re languages - mine speak English and German fluently so we thought we would go for a school with a different first foreign language to English, to allow a longer learning period for the third language. We looked at French, Italien and Spanish alternatives.

I don't know what it's like in Hessen, but in my state Gesamtschulen are quite few and far between and are generally very well-regarded and usually hopelessly oversubscribed. It wasn't an option for us, as we don't live near enough to any, but certainly for one of ours we would have much preferred it (he's at a Gymnasium and doing OK, but tbf it's not a very academic one as Gymnasien go* - we picked it more for the community and pastoral care).

I think I'd want to know, before committing to the Gesamtschule, whether children do actually change between the streams (in both directions - and also whether any stigma applies to a 'downwards' move) or whether it's effectively two/three schools under the same roof.

*IME standards at Gymnasien are not always as high as one might expect. My other older child is pretty academic and is at one (a different one from his brother) in what's supposed to be a particularly high-achieving class and the overall level is really not brilliant.

@GinTonic123

We are also in Hessen so I understand your thinking. As you get two choices can you not put the Gesamtschule first and Gymnasium second? The pressure to achieve is what would be the knock-out criteria for my son. He does not thrive under pressure but needs a more explorative approach to learning. My daughter on the other is very academic and suits the more classical approach of the gymnasium.

My daughter sounds similar to your son! Home schooling has given me a good insight into how she works and the pressure is not helpful! Your suggestion of Gesamtschule as first choice and gymnasium second is what we were/are planning...waiting for the Zeugnis on Friday now

@GinTonic123

Re languages - mine speak English and German fluently so we thought we would go for a school with a different first foreign language to English, to allow a longer learning period for the third language. We looked at French, Italien and Spanish alternatives.

This is also an interesting point, I was wondering if it would be better to start with a different language as the first foreign language (she could do French first at both schools) but I wouldn't say she's fully bilingual, German is definitely stronger. So we're tending more towards going with English first and French second.

@WeWashEverythingExceptLaundry

I don't know what it's like in Hessen, but in my state Gesamtschulen are quite few and far between and are generally very well-regarded and usually hopelessly oversubscribed. It wasn't an option for us, as we don't live near enough to any, but certainly for one of ours we would have much preferred it (he's at a Gymnasium and doing OK, but tbf it's not a very academic one as Gymnasien go* - we picked it more for the community and pastoral care).

I think I'd want to know, before committing to the Gesamtschule, whether children do actually change between the streams (in both directions - and also whether any stigma applies to a 'downwards' move) or whether it's effectively two/three schools under the same roof.

*IME standards at Gymnasien are not always as high as one might expect. My other older child is pretty academic and is at one (a different one from his brother) in what's supposed to be a particularly high-achieving class and the overall level is really not brilliant.

The Gesamtschule in our town has quite a bad reputation and the two gymnasium are very popular, with apparently high standards. They are known for 'sorting out' those who can't quite keep up...it's another point that makes me nervous...such a hard decision!

@WeWashEverythingExceptLaundry sorry I also meant to say that question came up in the information evening, there have a been a few pupils each year that move either up or down stream...good point about the stigma attached though, I wonder how this works in practice

Yes - I think what you wouldn't want, OP, is a sort of internal segregation (which may go as far as the children in the various streams not even mixing socially).

Also, is there a G8/G9 difference in Hessen between Gymnasium/Gesamtschule? Where I am, the former is G8 and the latter G9 (even for the Abitur stream), which I felt would have been a really good option for the one of mine I would have liked to send to a Gesamtschule - just that bit more time to work through the curriculum.

As far as languages go, I think there's such a gap between the kind of acquisition in a practical context that applies to German and English for kids in our dc's position and the learning of an additional language entirely in a school context that I don't necessarily think her English being weaker is any real reason not to introduce another language from the beginning iyswim. It'll be 'just another school subject' in a way neither English nor German are. (Btw, German was stronger for both my older two at that sort of age, despite strict OPOL, but they're mid-teens now and it's definitely changed - real bilingualism has set in for both, I'd say).

We're in Hessen, too. DS will be at a bilingual school for primary and we might stick with private for secondary. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. We have two primaries in town and the one we're in catchment for is on the same campus as the Gesamtschule. It seems very big and overwhelming and I'm not sure it would be the best place for him. His English is definitely stronger at this point.
In terms of Gesamtschule, I don't think moving between streams is such a big deal. Having to move from Gymnasium to a different school seems to be worse.

Good luck for Zeugnisse on Friday.
Did you already get the „Empfehlung“ from the school?

My son would be devasted to either move down a stream. I think children need to go to a school where they can be happy and successful with what they achieve, rather than worrying about not being good enough - if that makes sense.
The Gesamtschulen we have visited have surprised us positively with the range of modern teaching methods they utilise. If your daughter has a Gymnasial-Empfehlung she will probably flourish in a Gesamtschule too….
Good luck with the decision. It’s not easy.

@GinTonic123

Good luck for Zeugnisse on Friday. Did you already get the „Empfehlung“ from the school?

My son would be devasted to either move down a stream. I think children need to go to a school where they can be happy and successful with what they achieve, rather than worrying about not being good enough - if that makes sense.
The Gesamtschulen we have visited have surprised us positively with the range of modern teaching methods they utilise. If your daughter has a Gymnasial-Empfehlung she will probably flourish in a Gesamtschule too….
Good luck with the decision. It’s not easy.

Thank you! Looks like we might have to wait a bit longer for the Zeugnis...DD's class has been closed for a week due to too many Covid cases 🤦🏼‍♀️ we also haven't got the Empfehlung yet as her teacher has been off with Covid too. It could go either way tbh but I wouldn't be surprised if they say Real. DH is one of the 'Gymnasium at all costs' parents a PP mentioned, but I see it more like you, I think she could potentially do really well in the Gesamtschule in the real stream and then move up to gymnasium there, rather than struggling from the start at a gymnasium. Ahhh so difficult!

Also, is there a G8/G9 difference in Hessen between Gymnasium/Gesamtschule? Where I am, the former is G8 and the latter G9 (even for the Abitur stream), which I felt would have been a really good option for the one of mine I would have liked to send to a Gesamtschule - just that bit more time to work through the curriculum.

@WeWashEverythingExceptLaundry the gymnasium we are looking at has actually recently gone back to G9. The other one in town is G8 and the reason why we wouldn't consider it. It's definitely a plus for us.

Where I live most senior schools regardless of Gesamtschule or Gymnasium have reverted to G9 with just a couple of exceptions.
Do you have any pure Realschulen?
My OH’s biggest concern about a Gesamtschule is the clientele rather than the quality of teaching.

Maybe go and stand outside the potential schools and observe the behaviour / language of the children coming out??

My DD is in grade 6 in Gymnasium now and quite happy there so far. Gesamtschulen tend to have a lot of variation, where we live one is basically a Gymnasium in disguise, as they cream off the high achievers. It really depends on the catchment area the Gesamtschule is in, this does have a huge impact on the kind of kids you will encounter there. I would still avoid Gymnasien known for "sorting out" children, some will be quite liberal accepting them in 5th grade and then basically dump them after 6th.If your DC did well in Grundschule, there should not be any problem with going on to Gymnasium. Gesamtschule is less pressure but normally children who have good grades in Grundschule without having to put in too much work should be fine in Gymnasium, as there is "Luft nach oben".

Is it a KGS rather than an IGS? Then you can switch easily between the streams. I guess the question is how academic your children are and if they have a lot of hobbies that they want to keep up. Gymnasium is hard, that is for sure, but I think a KGS Gymnasium stream will be the same standard. Not sure about the clientele always being a problem, there are certainly IGSs where that is not the case. (I am in Frankfurt and that is the case here at least) G9 is definitely better, slightly less stress! Have you been able to go to open days? Or are they only digital this year?

Hello! Happy to help if I can. DS1 is in 7. Klasse now.

We decided on Gymnasium and have been really happy with it with the only bump being that German schooling at secondary level is SO different to the UK system I have felt a bit out of my depth (just starting my own thread on that.)

My reason in the end was that when I spoke to his class teacher, she explained to me that a lot of the Gesamtschule used to be Hauptrealschule/Werkrealschule (ie the least academic stream) and as a result a lot of the locals will still have that kind of perception, social class-wise, of the school, and that affects the demographic that go there. Also, that although it's theoretically possible to study the Abitur the problem (for some children) is that there is no automatic expectation that they will, and the demographics of the class will also make a difference here.

I know that's not PC on MN to be put off a school "because of the social class of the pupils" and if I'm honest this whole aspect of the tiered school system in Germany bothers me a lot. But in reality we were having quite a lot of problems in the last year of Grundschule with DS1 spending time with a couple of children who were really bad influences on him and I was really concerned that this was likely to continue into secondary, and while it wasn't great that at 9 he was wanting to listen to offensive rap music, act out in class, look at drugs/nudes/etc on instagram and hang out in a park eating crisps those are really small fry compared to the kinds of trouble teenagers can potentially get into.

I made an assumption (which turned out to be accurate) that children recommended to/entered for gymnasium would tend towards being the more academically minded, who were more likely to do their homework and less likely to sneer at each other for doing well in class and this paid off for us. And happily it is not just a middle class island as I feared, there are children from all different income groups, but there is a lot less of the smoking/graffiti/machismo than my mental image of the teen years (which I know, have not yet really begun.)

I worried about the pressure, because we only have one G9 school in our area and it was really oversubscribed and far away so he is at a G8, but so far, any pressure has actually been really good for him and he doesn't stress about school work at all - to a fault TBH. :o

Also, I don't know if it's the same in all Bundeslander, but here, you get three school choices and you CANNOT mix school types. So you have to apply for 3x Gesamtschule or 3x Gymnasien, you can't mix and match. This has been lamented a lot in our local group but it seems to be to do with the place allocation.

Since you don't have the Emphelung yet, you won't have had the meeting with the teacher either? I found this hugely helpful as I could ask questions and get answers from someone who knows the school system, the culture, and my child.

Local is really good from a making friends perspective, also for child being independent to get to school. No German teenager wants to be ferried about by their parents.

I would definitely check whether you can apply for both schools at once. As said, in our area (B-W) this is not allowed. I am also not sure what the criteria is for an out of city application. Maybe you can ask the Grundschule teacher.

Our Gymnasium has a bilingual stream which DS1 is in but it's not that impressive TBH. It's only one subject per year taught in English. I really like it but it's definitely not what I would think of as "a bilingual school". I liked the fact he would "learn" English and felt this would remove some pressure from him, he also studies French.

You may also want to look at what specialisms are offered - most Gymnasien offer a languages stream and a sciences stream, but many near us also have a third option which differs between schools, for example one has music, one has classics (ancient greek etc), one has sports and a couple have computer science which DS was interested in so we made sure to look at those options.

@fuzzwuss

Is it a KGS rather than an IGS? Then you can switch easily between the streams. I guess the question is how academic your children are and if they have a lot of hobbies that they want to keep up. Gymnasium is hard, that is for sure, but I think a KGS Gymnasium stream will be the same standard. Not sure about the clientele always being a problem, there are certainly IGSs where that is not the case. (I am in Frankfurt and that is the case here at least) G9 is definitely better, slightly less stress! Have you been able to go to open days? Or are they only digital this year?

Sorry I'm a bit late replying to you! We're in Bad Homburg so not far from you  the Gesamtschule we're looking at is a KGS. The more I've thought about it, the better I think it would be for her. They all cancelled the open days unfortunately, but we do know a family whose daughter goes there so that's helped.

@BertieBotts thanks for your input! I remember you from the German thread we used to have here we finally have the Gespräch tomorrow, but we are not really on the same page as her teacher and I can imagine she will disagree with our wish for her to go to gymnasium. It's been a very frustrating few years with lots of issues in general in the class, they even had to change Klassenlehrer because the first one could not handle the class.

I think we have made our decision to go with the Gesamtschule (Gymmasialzweig) first choice and gymnasium second. Just a case of finding out tomorrow whether she gets the Empfehlung or not.

On another note, maybe we should get another living in Germany thread going?!