Anyone with experience of German education system?

[ricepolo]

Specifically Kindergarten/Grundschule in Bavaria?

We’ve just moved to south Bavaria. We have two children (8 and 6) at an international school here, and youngest (UK reception age) started today at the local Kindergarten. Main reasoning is that this will let him learn German: we thought the others were too old (they needed friends quickly) plus reports of the local Grundschule were dreadful.

I’m not hugely impressed by how much our youngest will learn at the KG to be honest, in comparison to Reception in the UK, and I’m also concerned about the progress which the others will make at the international school. I don’t doubt the overall system, but we are unlikely to be here forever and my big concern is the children fitting back in academically when we return. Previously they were at an extremely good primary which fed into the local selective schools (please don’t turn this thread into a debate about our educational choices!): if we return I’m starting to get anxious they’ll have lost too much ground. They were all previously in the top quartiles of their classes academically so this is something we want to ensure we don’t mess up for them. Not yet sure when we’ll return: whether it’ll be in time for the 8yr old’s 11+ or not (she’d be in year 4 UK this year).

I’d value opinions of the German education system and how others have navigated this. Would you take the youngest out of the KG and into the international school? Would you supplement the international school or just ensure they were pushed there?

They all have lots of sports and other activities in their lives so we’re not hot housing - when we return we don’t want them to have missed out on something they could have achieved had we not moved, if that makes sense!

My knowledge might be out of date, but kindergarten is more like a playgroup than English style reception. They do the reading and writing later when they start school. It all works out in the end, but if you are planning a return to England soon, one of the international schools maybe better for you.

I'm in Hessen which has a slightly different school system to Bavaria but on the whole, there is no formal learning in kindergarten in Germany. There is usually a Vorschulgruppe for the kids in their last year of kindergarten before they start school but it's still not formal learning.

For me it would depend on how long you are planning to stay in Germany to make the decision on whether to move the youngest to international school. They won't start school til they are 6 in Bavaria (and depending on their birthday maybe closer to 7, cut off date is 30th June). If they would have two years of school before returning to the UK I think they would fit in ok but if you returned before they started school here or just after one year it would be more difficult. In that case you would probably be better sticking with an international kindergarten & school.

Kindergarten is not education. It's socialisation basically.

I would relax about it personally - your 4/5yo isn't going to be understimulated as play is all about exploration and learning at this age, plus they will be learning the entire German language, which will keep them busy. We moved to Germany the September DS1 would have started at reception. He is now in the third year of Gymnasium (like grammar school) and doing absolutely fine. It didn't hinder him at all.

Once they're in the final year of KiGa they tend to have a "Vorschule" class where they will do some simple learning but it is not as focused as reception class in the UK. However it works fine.

As DS1 had started some phonics recognition in the UK before we moved, I kept this up with him - I bought a "parents' guide to phonics" which taught me enough to understand the system and then we would just keep recognising letters and making simple words (sock, hat, cat, bum, etc) then I bought a set of Songbirds books and went through them slowly 1-2 a night, which introduced him to the more complex phonics like sh, th, ph, o_e, ie, oo etc. I just did this at the pace he was interested in and didn't push it and he was reading in English (and then pretty much immediately transferred the skill to German) before he started school, which amazed everyone, even though he was 6 which would have been thought of as late in the UK. So it probably depends when you're planning to move back. 1-2 years and the youngest may need to catch up. Longer than this and things will have evened out.

I would say for the older ones, if you want them to easily transition back into the UK system then international schools are best, that's exactly what they are designed for. But remember wherever they are they are likely to be being "stretched" by the extra effort of learning, hearing, speaking German every day.

I'm in Bavaria. Our Kindergarten was really good - all three of my children went there for 3 years each, and for us that meant I had at least one child in the Kindergarten without a break between them for nine consecutive years, which is quite a lot of Bavarian Kindergarten experience!

They absolutely do learn at Kindergarten if its a good one! What they don't learn is reading, writing and maths. This is no great loss as children learn to read much, much faster at age 6 than age 4. There is no earthly advantage in learning to read and write at UK reception age compared to starting at 6. Children who start at 6 are generally reading and writing just as well by age 8 as those who start at 4.

At Kindergarten children learn self care skills, independence skills, and develop fine and gross motor skills in small Montessori type groups and outdoors and in the Turnhalle (gym).

A good, traditional, Bavarian Kindergarten involves a lot of outdoor time in all weather, and trips out to farms and forestry and museums and local businesses. Kindergarten should have a theme which changes every three months or so, around which learning is based (things like where food comes from from field to plate including trips to farms and bakeries and small local producers), animals including trips out and visits from animal rescues, countries of the world (usually with stories from around the world and chance to try food from different countries). Those topics form a theme for stories, arts and crafts, games and all whole class and group work. There's also a lot of free play - essential for social skills and language development.

Vorschule children should be taken out of the mixed age class for an hour a day or so for a little bit of slightly academic work, but its very play based and light. They are now expected to start school recognising their letters and numbers and familiar with the calendar (days, weeks and months) but not much more.

My experience of Grundschule is not nearly as positive as Kindergarten - Grundschule depends so much on the teacher and Grundschule teachers have vastly more leeway than UK teachers. A bad teacher can utterly change your child's experience (as can a good one of course) but there are almost no checks and balances on Bavarian Grundschule teachers - if they pass their training they're essentially invincible (and don't they know it)! There are some wonderful ones but about the same number of tin pot dictators IME unfortunately!

I have name changed for this as it is quite outing. We have been back and forth between UK and Germany (Hessen) over the years and have some experience of the transition.

At primary level, I think it all depends on when you will return to UK and what sort of schools you will be looking at for your DC.

If your DC are in the German system and you are looking for them to move to eg WUS, or St Paul’s Junior at 7+ or 8+ you will have a problem because they will not be working at anything like the level required. But if you are looking for entry to a country prep it should be fine. 11+ for grammars and selective London schools will be difficult for anyone coming from a non English speaking system. Even if your children are clever and speak perfect English their written work will be below the standard required. You are unlikely to be able to remedy this through tutoring. But if they are reasonably bright you will not have any difficulties getting them into the last two years of an 8-13 prep.

If you have them in an international school they may be better placed. BUT international schools in Germany are very varied. Some are genuinely international, teach IB and produce good results - but nowhere near what you would get from eg Sevenoaks. Others are semi bilingual schools, teaching a predominantly German student body English in a mixture of German and English. They all have glossy brochures but the offering is very different.

Our experience with the well thought of (expensive!) international school our eldest attended was that it was very American in outlook, more geared up to students moving into the US college system and that it did not focus on academic attainment in the same way a British school would have done - particularly not at 10+ or 11+. The students were very happy though and it had good extra curricular and sports facilities, and lots of activities for parents. Results at 18 were also more mixed than you would have expected from a similarly priced school in UK. Most went on to German universities or colleges in the US. They did show us lists of students who had gone on to Russell Group Universities but when you dug down these were often students from eg Korea who had gone there to read maths, not the British, American or German students many of whom ended up at lower ranked universities. The handful of high achievers also inflated the average IB results they published.

Many of our decisions were driven by the timings of our moves. Our eldest stayed in the international school throughout but moved back to UK for sixth form. Our younger DC started in the German system but we moved them back to prep schools outside London at 10+ and 8+.

Had we not been abroad I think the middle one would have got into a grammar or highly selective private school at 11+ . But we were happy with our outcomes in the end. Our DC still have fluent German and an affinity for Germany. And we avoided all the tutoring and angst that London parents seem to go through.