Searching for a house in France

[Whatwouldbuffydo]

Hi, I'm hoping to buy a house in France in the next few years and was wondering if anyone could offer me any advice? Initially I'd like to rent it out through an agency as a holiday let. However, in the longer term I'd like to spend more time in France and hopefully even retire over there in the (much longer!) term.

All the research I've done implies that I won't get huge returns and that the property market in France is much slower than in the UK if I want to sell up in the future. I'm very much going into this with my eyes open (I think!) I'm just hoping to find a property that can mostly cover the mortgage and upkeep, with me supplementing this from my income when needed.

I'm still very much in the research and saving up for the deposit stage of this plan but am anticipating a budget of approx £200k. I was just wondering if anyone with experience of buying in France/living in France might be able to offer me some advice? I'm currently focused on the Languedoc-Roussilon region and would like to buy somewhere as close to the coast as possible. Visiting is difficult at the moment due to covid so I'm finding it hard to decide on an area.

I have mainly been looking at what is available on the Leggett Immobilier site but I was wondering if anyone could recommend any other property sites? I am finding it difficult to find many properties in the coastal towns I'm interested in(Sete, Argeles-sur-mer, Agde etc). I'm not sure whether there isn't much available there or whether it is just being advertised elsewhere.

I have been quite set on buying in the Languedoc but am also starting to wonder whether I would be better to go for somewhere inland that was cheaper but close to a lake with a beach for watersports and beach days.

I'd be really grateful for any advice, especially as covid makes any trips over to France tricky at the moment!
Thanks very much

Honest advice and sorry to be brutal is don’t! I lived in France for many years, had a beautiful house that took over 3 years to sell at 60% of original price paid 16 years ago. Property market very unstable, unless you can lose the cash I just wouldn’t risk it.

No experience of France specifically but do you have or can obtain Citizenship/ passport from an EU country? Without that it will be difficult to spend more time in France and definitely difficult to retire to an EU country post- Brexit.

I agree with pp. Take into account that any figures you have been given for holiday rentals won't just be money in your pocket.

If you are letting out the property then you will need cleaners/laundry/gardeners and if you are doing Saturday changeovers then they are like hens teeth. Then add in the costs of advertising/commission/agency fees

You will need at least 2 but probably 3 sets of linen for each bed and a good stock of spare crockery etc.

If something breaks/goes wrong and you have guests, it will need sorting promptly. You will need to pay someone to do this and rely on them being available when you need them.

You need to factor in that there is not the same culture of 24/7 opening for shops. Many still close at lunchtime for 2 hours and it is very unusual to find anything open on a Sunday apart from bakers, florists and the larger supermarkets who are only open in the morning.

Things that are relatively speedy and simple in the UK just don't happen that way here.

Guest calls at 7pm on a Saturday when they arrive to say that (e.g.) the parasol is broken. It is 40 degrees and they need some shade. No nipping out to B&Q to get a new one as the French equivalent will be closed. They also won't be open on a Sunday.

That probably all sounds a bit harsh but we've been there and got the t-shirt and we actually lived on-site!

Don't get me wrong - we have lived here for many years and don't regret a single moment, but it is a very different way of life and running a successful holiday rental is a very different kettle of fish to what it would be in the UK. 2000 euros a week rental sounds like a lot, but it doesn't go far when you factor in all of the above.

Probably not the answer you wanted OP - sorry!
Just being honest.

@myotherusernameistaken

Do you also have to pay tax (in France) on any rental income?

Try LeBonCoin and Seloger websites

Doer uppers are very popular with expats (mostly Brits). Beware though for all of the reasons that myotherusernameistaken states - it can take a very loooong time to get things done in France and can be very expensive. Probably one of the reasons why most French people don't buy them!

I think the market has changed a bit since Covid. We downsized from our large rural property in Normandy this year. We had it on the market for a year with steady viewings until Covid stopped them, but the months after the first lockdown were crazy. We sold it at full price to Parisians. We then had a real struggle to find somewhere, agents would not do viewings until we had a compromis de vente on ours. We were lucky to find what we wanted, but had to make a full-price offer to get it off the market. There are still very few houses that get as far as the agents here.

@TwoLeftSocksWithHoles

It would depend on where you are registered to pay tax.
You pay in either UK or France - not both.
If the OP remains living in the UK then any rental income "should" be declared there.

If you are wishing to become resident in France (which as a PP has said is increasingly difficult post Brexit) then you would need to register as a business and pay tax which can be quite high and does not really allow for claiming expenses in the same way as the UK).

If you import your UK vehicle it can be veeeeery expensive to re-register it. Driving licences are an on-going nightmare.

If you come to live here but don't jump through all the residency hoops then you are limited to 90 days in any 180
You would also be paying two sorts of tax on the property. Tax Fonciere and Tax d'Habitation - these are a bit like rates/council tax and are assessed on the size of your house and the amenities )pool, garage, outbuildings etc)

Electricity is not cheap - especially if you have guests who hammer the aircon/heating 24/7 (central heating is not really the norm). They are on holiday and they won't care.

You won't be surprised to hear that I am not in line for a job with A New Life in the Sun (or whatever it is called)

Hi everyone, thanks very much for all of your replies. I went to work and when I came back there were loads!

I thought everyone would say don't do it! To be fair I probably have watched too many episodes of A New Life in the Sun but I still would love to go for it.

@hollypocks I'm really sorry to hear that you didn't get back what you paid for your house, that must be gutting. Is that common in your experience or do you think it was due to the particular area your house was in? I'm just wondering if the property market is more stable cities/larger towns rather than somewhere more rural.

@catmack16 Tbh this is my biggest concern although retirement is not on the cards for me for at least 30+ years as I'm only 32! I currently teach so have thought about semi-retiring and tutoring English part-time so going over on a visa for starting a business but I need to look into that further. I definitely wouldn't buy anywhere until I'd made sure I'd have the option to move there permanently in the future if I wanted.

@myotherusernameistaken Don't say sorry! It's really helpful to hear your experiences. I'd definitely realised that a large percentage of my income would go straight out again on maintenance and a company to manage the changeovers for me. I'm just thinking that if I can find somewhere where there's a decent demand for holidays then even with those costs I'll have a house in France outright by the time I'm ready to retire.

@towdenbursgi That's brilliant, thank you. I'll have a look at those, I seem to spend so long looking at houses (both here in the UK!) especially when I have work I should be doing!

@HilaryThorpe. That's really encouraging that the property market is changing. Do you think that's the post covid effect of everyone wanting to move out of flats and into houses with gardens? You mentioned that lots of houses don't get as far as agents. Did you have to register with agents and ask them to contact you with anything suitable before it was advertised more widely? I'm just wondering if that might be a good idea for me to do as there are certain areas I just can't find any properties at all.

@myotherusernameistaken I'm sure A new Life in the Sun would be lucky to have you! Tbf they do have plenty of episodes showing poor Brits struggling to adapt to life and bureaucracy abroad! I've definitely got a lot to think about. The VISA situation is such a pain, especially as I didn't vote for bloody Brexit! Maybe I'll have to find a nice EU citizen to marry!

I had looked at buying a holiday let in the UK and managing it myself but where I am (South Staffordshire) is not very touristy so I don't think I could successfully rent out a holiday let and cover the mortgage. I've looked at places within 45 minutes-1 hour of where I live in the UK so I can manage a changeover but the cost of even something modest in somewhere more appealing to tourists like Stratford-on-avon is way over my £200k budget. If you all had to choose would you spend longer saving up and buy a holiday let in the UK rather than France?

Thanks so much for all of your advice. It's really helpful.

Just to add to a few things above - retiring to France post-Brexit will not just be about having a visa. One of the biggest issues will be health cover. Even before Brexit, the French government had made it much more difficult for non-working or retired Brits to get full coverage on French state healthcare. Without state coverage, the costs for health cover can and will be huge if you're not working.

The agents were selling houses before they were advertised round here (rural Normandy). We were only able to view after we had accepted an offer and the notaire's were in the process of drawing up a compromis. One agent said that they had a queue of people to view the day houses went on the market.
We accepted a full price offer and then put one in ourselves, because when you do that the vendors are obliged to accept it and then nobody else can view. If you are a cash buyer then you would be in a good position.
I don't know how long it will continue - people desperately wanted to move to the countryside post lockdown.

Don't buy via Legget. They are commission based and will sell you anything.
Approach thd marie for a list of properties for sale. Many will sell privately. Lauzun, Castilleones abd eymet all ate lovely places and only 20 min to bergerac airport.

Hi OP

We’re in the Languedoc- inland, not coastal. We actually live in Lyon but this is my parents holiday place which they’ve had for 15 years.

I have to agree with the above pps. Unless you live here full time, speak good french and have huge amounts of money, don’t go for a doer upper. Everything - goods, supplies, furnishings, labour etc - is expensive here compared to uk. Building methods and standards are very different.

My folks bought a standard 2/3 bed bungalow on a lotissement in a small village. Our neighbours sold - the house was in the market for at least 3 years. One village over, there’s a lovely 4/5 bed grange restoration, with pool etc: it’s been in the market for well over a year now.

Languedoc is really variable. The coast is generally packed all summer. Inland, villages that have lots of Brits are often well looked after with nicely restored buildings, restaurants etc. But others are - frankly - dead as a doorknob and I would not choose to live in them full time.

There are some good FB groups you can join - Ladies in Languedoc and Ladies in Business in France for starters. Also the Strictly Health / Legal / Fiscal trio are good for a read.

We did consider turning this place into a holiday let at one point but the charges of the management company / changeover costs were way too high to make it worthwhile.

How well do you know France OP? Do you speak French?

My parents owned a house in France for 15 years. I cannot comment on commercial letting as theirs was only ever used by them with friends borrowing it for certain weeks, but would agree with others in that they did a lot of work to it and the French builders were often expensive and slow! (Luckily my dad is handy and did lots of the work himself). They were lucky and made an ok profit on theirs but they had renovated it extensively.
I was more writing to recommend the Charante Maritime area they lived in. Beautiful microclimate, 5 mins drive from the coast, well served by La Rochelle airport to the north and Bordeaux to the south and lots of interesting places to visit within an hours drive. We loved visiting and went at least once if not twice a year and never got bored.

@myotherusernameistaken

It would depend on where you are registered to pay tax.
You pay in either UK or France - not both.
If the OP remains living in the UK then any rental income "should" be declared there.

I think all of us living in France are probably aware of how some non-residents have been handling this but it has sometimes ended in tears, so be careful.

www.french-property.com/guides/france/working-in-france/letting-property/taxation

www.europeaccountants.com/blog/tax-on-rental-income-non-residents-in-france/

The French fisc expect you to “register” with them and complete an annual tax return even if you have very low earnings and they are not actually going to impose any tax on you.

Also in some circumstances you definitely can end up paying income tax in both countries, even on things like some UK pensions, what you shouldn’t end up doing is paying tax twice on the same earnings, rental or otherwise.

Otherwise agree with pretty much all the other main points:

Nothing gets done quickly.
Housing market nothing at all like the U.K.
Brexit and the 90 day requirement has complicated things more than a little for those who haven’t already gained residency.

@notimagain

My use of "should" was definitely not advocating finding twisty loopholes to avoid paying tax correctly - just wanted to clarify that

I despair of many people on the local/legal forums who are permanently resident here and post with no shame about popping back to the UK for an MOT/dental work/renewing car insurance/hospital appt etc etc.

One of the very, very few upsides of the Brexit debacle is that it has made some people realise that they just can't carry on doing this.

I think you'd be mad to do it 😂 (I'm French, I live in the area you're interested in - it's Occitanie now by the way - and my mum has a gîte).

Waves to @LaChatte from Occitanie.

@myotherusernameistaken

Waves to *@LaChatte* from Occitanie.

Huh, if I put things in creepy wee brackets they don't show up on the app, never knew that.

@myotherusernameistaken

Yep agree with you about some of those who flitted to and fro…

I gather some of those who suddenly decided they wanted to continue to live in France full time post Brexit came to grief when asked to present French income tax records as part of the residency/Titre de Sejour application process….

‘Twas also always surprised at the number of Brits had so many British friends available to house sit their French pile during the summer holidays………

@notimagain

Glad it's not just me

I also think that the implications of not having residency/health care/tax records etc haven't really hit home for many people due to the fact that travel between here and the UK has not been "normal" due to the Covid restrictions. Once we are able to travel freely again, then the whole 90/180 day restrictions are really going to hit home for some people who are blissfully unaware.

Apologies OP - my comment about being "blissfully unaware" was absolutely not directed at you.

I am referring to UK nationals who have been here for many, many years without feeling the need to deal with any of the required paperwork.

One of my parents have an house near where you are looking however what makes thing much easier is that

a) they are European
b) it's not used to make money & is not let out.
c) bought it at least 35 yrs ago so was very cheap.

I have to agree with the above pps. Unless you live here full time, speak good french and have huge amounts of money, don’t go for a doer upper. Everything - goods, supplies, furnishings, labour etc - is expensive here compared to uk. Building methods and standards are very different.

I agree. I wouldn't never plan to make money on property there.

One piece of advice, unless you are French or have an EU passport and speak fluent French, don't do it

But if you still like to drool over properties I like www.bienici.com/