Joberg for 2 years with a 9 year old

[ilovetomatoes]

Any thoughts on moving to Joberg? I would be taking the lead career wise, husband looking for a job there locally. 2 kids age 9 and 4.

Bit concerned about the 9 year old mostly. Is it terrible to move him now for 2 years? He’s need to do the 11+ for his next school so would have to prep for that while we were there. Feel like I’m being a bit selfish but it’s a great job and hopefully it would be a wonderful experience for us all

I've been through many countries as an expat but Joburg was the absolute worst of all of them. Constantly worried about safety, high crime rate crap economy. It is not a great place to be. South Africa is utterly gorgeous and if the posting was Cape Town area I'd consider it, but I wouldn't move kids to Joburg unless I had to.
Just personal experience. I've done short stints in a lot of locations and the only one worse than 18 months in Joburg was a year in Pakistan!

Johannesburg looks terrifying to me, like living in a war zone. I'm sure you'll find expats who have had good experiences there though. There's a good Facebook group called Two Fat Expats and I'm always surprised by the places people live and enjoy.

I also have lived in many places but I wouldn’t consider joberg from a security point of view. I went for a work visit once, got collected from the airport in an armoured car, and the driver drive very slowly through junctions where the traffic signals were on red as it was considered too dangerous to stop. Such high rates of crime and violence and life is cheap there.

I'm a war zone veteran and I'd not live / work in Joburg. A friend took a 6 month posting there - the course she was sent on by employer pre-departure included a lengthy section on 'rape awareness'.

I’ve done stints in Jo’burg for work and pleasure. This was over 10 years ago. I had a great time there. However I’m not sure if I would move there with a young family. It just seems that the violent crime/attacks on women/rape/ security issues seems to have gotten worse.

We lived in a different part of SA for 2 years and PIL lived in Joburg.

They loved it, and we enjoyed staying there once a month. They are both South African (but moved away 40 years ago) and would only stay in a gated apartment rather than a house. Lots of options in Sandton, and that felt safe to me - I would happily walk from their apartment to the mall etc.

They had colleagues whose kids went to Crawford International.

Depending on your husband’s skill set, he may struggle to find a job.

To answer the other part of your question about whether 9-11 is an okay age for a child to do an expat stint, I would have no concerns at that age.

An expert I listened to once had a fairly firm opinion that big moves were much harder on children after age 11.

Joburg has a few up and coming hipster zones and a big mall but mostly it's a dump. I wouldn't live there. Lots of it is scary. Cape Town is another matter.

Gosh thank you all for your honesty. Perhaps I’m getting a bit carried away as the job is excellent, would be a real differentiator for my career and would almost certainly lead on to bigger and better things.

If it helps I would be able to live in a gated compound.

Sounds like I should stop being selfish and look for a different role.

I've just recently come back to the UK after 4 years of living in South Africa (not Jo'burg but within an hours drive from it) and as much as I loved some parts of living there, the fear I felt when we drove through parts of Jo'burg and SA was palpable and I don't think I could live in the city itself. Cape Town is beautiful and I love it there too but the crime rate there is actually higher than in Joburg. I think though because Cape Town looks so stunning and is full of tourists it's easy to forget about the dangers, whereas Joburg looks intimidating immediately. I loved it in SA but was glad to leave without being a victim of crime there. The relief when we left was a surprise to me, I think I'd just gotten so used to being ultra vigilant that when I could finally stop and relax I only then realised the fear we had been living under.

We also lived in a gated compound and they do make you feel safe - but you can't really freely walk around South Africa when you live in Joburg/Pretoria. I walked half a km to the shop down the road shortly after arriving in SA and was given short shrift by our neighbours and my husbands security team at his work for putting myself in danger. We lived in a supposedly safe part of town but even a walk down the road to get milk was deemed a risk as a lone woman. So even though you're living in a gated community, the second you leave it you have to be on guard.

Oh gosh, no, Joburg is not a war zone. OP if this is a great career opportunity, don’t let yourself be put off by the bad reputation. There is a high crime rate, like in many cities in the world. You take precautions to keep yourself safe (eg, as you say, you’ll be living in a gated community.) Most buildings have private security. Areas like Sandton are perfectly safe. It takes a while to get used to- things like always driving, not walking; not using ATMs on the street, etc- but you do get used it it and it’s just a different way of life. Plenty of people live in Joburg and manage it every day.

South Africa is an incredible country and I’d jump at the chance to live there again.

I’d suggest getting in touch with some potential new colleagues who live there now and asking for their opinions- otherwise you’ll find yourself swayed by people who’ve heard rumours or who have limited experience of living in emerging markets and expect it to be like the U.K.!

We came back from abroad for the start of Y6 in order to get an on time application in for secondary. All comprehensive round here, so no idea how the 11+ works, but can you sit it from abroad? If you pass, can you apply from abroad? Our LEA accepted our in year transfers from abroad, but we were flying in 3 days. Friends applications were refused until they had landed in England.

I loved working with our South African factory, but not sure id live there (Not Jo'burg).

For reading, the guy who wrote Maple and Marula blog was absolutly hilarious on a facebook group I was in. He is back in Canada now, but there could be some useful stuff in his older posts.

I had a great time in Joburg and even stayed in Soweto! Had no problem at all there walking alone to the famous Vilakazi (sp?) Street, famous for being the only street in the world where 2 Nobel Peace Prize winners lived. Mandela - his house is now a museum - and Desmond Tutu, whose moved somewhere else. Also did a bike tour and don't drive so took taxis into town. Also stayed downtown and had no problems there either. I'm a hardy solo traveller though. And never look "rich". Also did the hop-on hof-off tour.

Loved Cape Town too. Basically all of S.A.

I went to university in Stellenbosch and have family in Zambia. I wouldn't consider it for my family. If you have been brought up in the UK, you're simply not streetwise and alert enough to keep yourself and your children safe

No just no. Don’t do it. My in laws live in SA so I’ve been many many times. DH’s friends that he grew up with are all desperately trying to get out of SA. Joburg is depressing, it’s not normal to live behind gates with armed guards. To not be safe to walk to the shops, to be anxious driving along the road.

There are armed guards outside shopping malls and on trains. Some people probably find that reassuring but I found it terrifying/depressing. I wouldn't want to live there personally.

Thank you all so much. It would be for 2/3 years max.

I am definitely reconsidering. I will carry on with the process while I continue my research.

Interestingly I contacted my old boss tonight who did the exact same role 10 years ago. He told me “best job I ever did, best place I ever lived”. So now I am totally confused! Ha

If it were just me I would probably go for it. I am worried about the children and the impact it would have on them living in that oppressive environment and potentially hearing stories from friends, being exposed to elements of life they don’t need to understand now.

@ilovetomatoes Don't get me wrong OP, much as we were living under a cloud of fear at time, there was a lot to love about the country. The weather is incredible, safari is just mind blowing, the holidays you can do without having to leave the country are incredible. Food is excellent and cheap compared to the uk, wine is great. We moved there when my son was 2 and he went to nursery and the American school
in Pretoria. He loved it, because of the weather and the range of things to do outdoors (hiking, safari, the beach, swimming, biking etc) it can be a great place to raise kids. But on our compound in the last year of living there, 2 of our neighbours were victims of armed robbery in places that you'd think were relatively secure. They were ok, they gave the criminals all their belongings and were unharmed, but one was visibly pregnant and the other had her kids with her in the car at the time. So as much as we loved our time there, knowing what I know now and how lucky we were really to not have been the victim of any kind of crime I don't think I could live there again. Visit, yes definitely just for the safari and Cape Town experiences, but live - no.

@cakebythepound1234 I really appreciate that perspective. It is definitely stories like that which are important for me to hear.

I have been to joburg before when I was backpacking, freewheeling around as young people tend to do without a care in the world so that definitely skewed my perspective when I applied on the first place. Living there with children, with a job that may be reasonably high profile in my industry suddenly takes on a different spin.

I have a few chats lined up with people who have been there recently in my company so will continue to explore it. I don’t even have the job yet by the way! Another round of interviews to go!

@bluejelly I hear you, that isn’t great. But I feel very uneasy when I visit places where the police carry guns on a routine. Paris for example. Seeing police walk around with massive guns, a bit unnerving for a British person.

Police carry guns in Paris and on the streets of Hong Kong too. That has nothing to do with the level of violence and the risk to your safety and your children's mental well-being.

When you speak to colleagues, try to make sure you're getting perspectives of people with families, who have not grown up in SA, not just those without kids or born & bred South Africans. You're right that people working there now will be the best ones to give you the full picture.

I don't think you definitely shouldn't go, but after doing all the research, own the level of risk that you're putting your family at, and then trust that it's still worth it.

agree with HetMeal lots of countries have armed policemen. Hell, the police have guns in Singapore and it's just about the safest country ever! I would not move to Joburg with children - you are always looking over your shoulder and you never feel safe. I absolutely hated my time there and I've lived in loads of places. SA is a beautiful place to visit, especially the Cape Town region but I wouldn't willingly move a family to Joburg from the UK.

Agree - you need to speak to ex pats who have moved there with young children for a significant period of time. No point speaking to a born and bred saffa who has an inate 6th sense for trouble or someone who is trying to encourage you to move there for a job. I love South Africa but would never move back there as my husband just isn't confident (why would he be) in owning, keeping and using a gun in the house or his practice. I can't guarantee that I would scrupulously check everytime I drive through my gates that no one had run in behind me before I got myself and the kids out of the car. Despite going to uni there, it's not second nature for me - particularly now I've been back in the UK for years. An example for me the other day - I had two men in the house fitting shutters I had ordered when I was on my own with the kids. I wouldn't dream of doing that in SA without my husband being present.

Why don't you join some ex pat Facebook groups and ask there?

We are currently at the start of the process to emigrate to New Zealand. The number of SA health care professionals moving there at the moment is enormous - all cite safety as one of the key reasons they are going

Thank you all for the continued comments. Please do keep them coming.

I spoke to my old boss this morning who did the same role in Joburg. He basically told me that if he lived in a compound, the commute to work was along a highway and they didn’t stray out of a handful of areas. So for those reasons he felt safe and it didn’t really impact him. I discussed with him that I might insist on having a driver if I went, as my husband might be at home so wouldn’t want to be driving around on my own. He thought that would be a good idea and something the company would accommodate.