Anyone moved from UK to Italy with 3 children?

[GoofyIsACow]

It’s an on/off pipedream which we may just be able to make happen but now it could happen i’m nervous!
3 DS’ age 10, 11 and 13
DH has family links over there and I speak Italian (although not confidently enough to deal with a house purchase!)
I looked at a residential let but it seems you have to be an Italian resident for that?
Any advice or experiences good or bad are very welcome.
Thank you

I lived there for some years, and there are severe types of rental contracts, so you can rent.
Where are you thinking of going? Life in Milan or Sicily is not the same!

I think of Italy as a very happy place to live. Very different from UK but in a bad sense, just different!

not in a bad sense.

Hi @Cormoran thank you for your reply. DH’s italian family are in the Tuscany region and we have ties to that area as well as the ligurian coast.
That’s interesting about rentals, i feel like that would be less permanent in my head!
What a lovely way to describe it, a happy place to live! What makes you say that? Do you have children and how old were they when you moved there? How did they find it?

I know someone who moved last year, mid pandemic, to the Piedmont region with three young children (between 18ish months and 5 i think). Definitely do-able. That was a work relocation so I imagine they had company support.

We had a type of contract called " foresteria " but then also rented a beach house with a contract called "stagionale " for 5 months. The classic contract are called 4+4. Rental laws are very much in favour of tenants in Italy ( and no such thing as inspection during tenancy) , so the landlords need to be very careful.

I had two children at the time and they were 4 and 2. It is amazing how welcome children are, everywhere, at any time, in restaurant at night, how freely women can breastfed anywhere openly without having to cover.

People have a happy spirit, the baker will great you with " Bella mamma" and hand a breadstick to your child, and if one has a tantrum and you feel ashamed, people who pass you will tell you "tranquilla , passa, passa" (it will pass, don't fret)

They recognise you, great you in the street, all the donnas everywhere with children, and the food!! the FOOD! you go the market and it so cheap, so fresh, so diverse, and if you ask how to cook something, the fishmonger will go on forever and then a random woman who is queueing will join the conversation and object to the spice and offer her recipe nd then start arguing with the fishmonger and you are totally unable to follow their conversation .

Italy is loud, busy, bustling with life. People are nice, kind. Everyone talks at the same time, one on top of the other, and dinners are full of laughters.

I was on the opposite coast, and the Tuscans are known to be a bit harder to get, so they won't invite you for dinner on the first hour they meet you, but you can win them.

But .... covid... not sure how long it will take to have the spirit back. I am from Monaco and have friends in Italy, it is red lockdown again, everyone is a bit - a lot - down.

@Cormoran your post made me smile so much, that is absolutely my experience of Italy and a huge part of why we would love to do this!
How easy is it get children into schools? Will they struggle not speaking any italian do you think?
I’m sure Covid has left an indelible mark, it’s such a shame they have had to lock down again.

Primary school starts at 6 in Italy, so DD who was 2 was enrolled in the " nido" and DS1 was in the "materna". That's another thing about Italy, childcare is so cheap, you only pay the meals made onsite. So what you would pay for a day in Australia (where were are now) covers a full month, and everyone puts their children in the nido or materna . You don't see young children around in the morning, and see plenty of nonnas doing their groceries and nonnos sitting on benches or at a cafe playing cards.

So whilst I don;t have experience of school in Italy, I have plenty in other countries, because we move a lot for DH's job. We had several postings in countries in which my DC didn't speak a word of the language, and the first months are hard, but it really helps if you know the language or learn it beforehand.

School in Italy is divided in 3 segments, elementare, medie, liceo. You have 5 years primary, 3 middle school and then 5 senior years, so you finish at 19.
There is a lot more homework. There are different types of school programs, so some will finish at 1 pm and then have a Saturday morning, or 2pm or 4 pm, the schools will tell you what they offer.
Private schools have a very bad reputation. They are for those too dumb to succeed in public system, and religious school are even worse, as they will take the delinquents, and it is usually used as a threat. My friend would say, "behave or I send you to the JEsuite "

Ahh that’s interesting thank you so much!
Maybe we should consider the children learning a little italian, they are learning french and spanish in school and all seem to have inherited my love for languages so maybe we could make that work.
I read that about the private schools.
I wonder what difference Brexit will have made!!

Do your children speak Italian? If not, I would be concerned about their ability to access education.

Friends moved to a European country with a 13 year old who didn't speak the language and they have really struggled- did poorly at the equivalent of their GCSEs there and also struggled to make friends for some time due to not speaking the language and his mum reckoned all the kid knowing each other since they were young- there is little mobility into the area they lived in and certainly no other English kids at the school.

They were at a fairly rural school, very little additional support,

Their younger sibling (7) seemed happier and picked up the language and friends much quicker.

I'm in Italy.

Renting is easy because a lot of people do it. Rentals have to be registered with the local govt agency.

You need a LOT of documents to live here. If you're British, I'm not sure what the score is now as our updated residenza certs as non EU citizens was granted on the basis of us already having residenza before January of this year. You need Codice Fiscale (kind of like NI numbers but more important) to do anything (it doubles now as your healthcare card, so you need it to register with a doctor etc) renting, buying, signing up for utilities, buying a phone, registering your kids in school. Everything.

You have to do things like pay rubbish taxes and extra bits and bobs to pay for the upkeep of the communal areas in your building.

Kids start school at 6 but school is much more formal than the UK. They've done 3 years almost obligatory nursery first and everybody does it. Depending on the nursery kids learn to read and write there, not elementary school. My daughter's teacher was appalled that a couple of the kids in her class hadn't already been taught to read and write at their nursery. Lots and lots of homework and it's not an optional. It very rarely happens but kids can absolutely fail their school year and have to resit. Lots of official written and oral tests every term. 2 school reports a year and marks given from 0-10. Anything below 6 is "insufficient" and steps are taken. Extra lessons in the afternoon, etc. If the situation continues at the end of the year they can get "debits" and in September have to take a readmission test in that subject.
There's a lot of emphasis on "knowing" rather than "doing" in Italian schools. Very little practical work.
We've been online teaching on and off for a year now. My daughter's school had full live video lessons from the start.

Costs- some things cheaper than the UK, some things more expensive. Utility bills definitely more expensive. Mobile phone contracts etc also. Meat and fish about the same or a bit more expensive. Fruit and veg in season cheaper, but only for seasonal. Medicines OTC more expensive. Prescription meds cheaper. Medical care, free at source but most people do pay for private scans etc if they need one.

It's damp. I am currently sitting with a thick dressing gown on, 2 pairs of socks and the heating.

It's not perfect, but I wouldn't still be here after 27 years if there wasn't something.

Just remembered, in school reports there is “ condotta “ behaviour!!! And yes you need 6 in every subject!!

I don't know if this is the same everywhere in Italy but, when we were living in Lombardy, a lot of rentals were intended for very long-term leases. Many flats came without kitchens - tenants put in their own, which is feasible because they can have much longer-term contracts than here. But they are probably not going to suit you, as you won't want the commitment.

Logistically, we found it easiest to start with an AirBnB rental for a few weeks, and look around for a suitable flat with a short-term lease.

Thank you so much everyone for your responses, all really useful.
The boys don’t speak Italian, apart from a few bits I have taught them, so I think that’ll be the dealbreaker in terms of living there. However, we are potentially discussing doing longer breaks maybe or maybe waiting a few years and retiring there for 6 months of the year!

Lockdown has given me wanderlust!

For the schooling there is language support in the public schools, although I suspect it’s a postcode lottery depending on where you live. When DD was in 4 elementare (so 9-10yo) a girl arrived from Turkey and was given a support teacher to help her understand the lessons. In under 6 months she was fluent. I believe this is also available for scuola media (11-14yo), although it is more likely they will be made to repeat a year. At 14 there are state exams (Terza Media), then no further exams until the end of liceo. The liceo stage is divided into specialties (scientific, artistic, classic etc.) and there are also technical institutes for the less academically inclined.

I’m not sure about the residency rules post Brexit, you will need a visa if you exceed 3 months, plus you will need a permesso di soggiorno and be self funding. You will probably need the permesso for a rental contract too. The uso foresteria no longer exists I think (I know many moons ago my rental contract got moved to a 2+2 from a uso foresteria, can’t remember why). To work you will need a permesso di soggiorno and a work permit and depending on the job your employer will need to demonstrate that there is no EU citizen able to do it. So it has all got a bit harder.

On the other hand the light is magnificent compared to grey U.K. skies, spring and autumn are pleasant, summers are very hot and many Italians fear aircon, so it’s unlikely you will find a rental equipped with it. Food is much better quality on the whole, although if you’re out in the sticks it can be a bit samey if you’re used to the range of cuisines in U.K. supermarkets.

This thread is a God sent, thank you Op! We are thinking of moving. DH is Italian (South) but we'd move to Tuscany. Thinking about when is better for the DC. Have a 3 year old and a 6. Financially in 5 years is looking like a good option. If we moved when DC are 11, do you think they can still integrate and "be italian"? Will they resent us for separating them from friends? Is this a huge mistake as schools where we live are great? What has been people's process for moving, have you done lots of visits stayed longer and longer, or was it big bang? Any particular challenges with Tuscany itself?

@Cormoran

We had a type of contract called " foresteria " but then also rented a beach house with a contract called "stagionale " for 5 months. The classic contract are called 4+4. Rental laws are very much in favour of tenants in Italy ( and no such thing as inspection during tenancy) , so the landlords need to be very careful.

I had two children at the time and they were 4 and 2. It is amazing how welcome children are, everywhere, at any time, in restaurant at night, how freely women can breastfed anywhere openly without having to cover.

People have a happy spirit, the baker will great you with " Bella mamma" and hand a breadstick to your child, and if one has a tantrum and you feel ashamed, people who pass you will tell you "tranquilla , passa, passa" (it will pass, don't fret)

They recognise you, great you in the street, all the donnas everywhere with children, and the food!! the FOOD! you go the market and it so cheap, so fresh, so diverse, and if you ask how to cook something, the fishmonger will go on forever and then a random woman who is queueing will join the conversation and object to the spice and offer her recipe nd then start arguing with the fishmonger and you are totally unable to follow their conversation .

Italy is loud, busy, bustling with life. People are nice, kind. Everyone talks at the same time, one on top of the other, and dinners are full of laughters.

I was on the opposite coast, and the Tuscans are known to be a bit harder to get, so they won't invite you for dinner on the first hour they meet you, but you can win them.

You make it sound so nice..but let me add,after having lived here for over 40 years,it's not all roses and flowers. When everything is fine and dandy it's a great place to live, but start to have any sort of problems then the music changes.Having to deal with the corrupt lazy bureaucrats that are on the front line between you and your needs...that's the real Italy. Keep it for your holidays.

@fataroundthemiddle you make it sound so bad. I personally never met a lazy corrupt bureaucrat. I think it depends a lot where you are, Reggio Emilia and Reggio Calabria are in two different worlds.

It is a different country, a different culture, some things will appear absurd to a British Citizen, in the same way some things in Australia appear absurd to my Monegasque self.

[quote Cormoran]@fataroundthemiddle you make it sound so bad. I personally never met a lazy corrupt bureaucrat. I think it depends a lot where you are, Reggio Emilia and Reggio Calabria are in two different worlds.

It is a different country, a different culture, some things will appear absurd to a British Citizen, in the same way some things in Australia appear absurd to my Monegasque self.[/quote]
I am in Veneto and have been for 40 odd years.I've done it all here,rented my first property,had children,been through the whole school system multiple times,learnt to cook,learnt to drive,run a buisness,buy a house.So I do know a little about the place.Apart from my personal experience I have also seen other families fall in love with Italy,usually on their holidays, sell up, move over here and while the going is good great.When problems arise like health or other, not so easy. Got a problem?Some/most/alot of public offices don't even answer the phone.Go there and the little shit behind the counter makes out that you are at their service not them at yours. Anyway lots can be said along that line.I suppose in uk there are also things that I don't know about that are also bad.On the good side here is the health service.Seems better than the NHS that I remember from my childhood.The weather is better as is/was the food. Missing the crap?Well we have Lidl too. People are more pleasant in small towns. Still thinking of coming over?Go for it!If not you might just regret it.Then you make your own mind up.

Stumbled across this thread, we are in Tuscany if anyone still has with specific questions, although DS is only 2 and was born here! I’m British and DH is from here.

In terms of schools, Florence has international schools and a lot of UK/US families, otherwise you’re looking at state schools or private bilingual schools (patchy quality and aimed at Italians rather than native English speakers) so any preparation you can do in terms of learning Italian is valuable. We have friends who transferred here with end of primary/secondary age kids and they got a lot of language support from their state schools and picked it up fast, made Italian friends etc. The biggest challenge they had wasn’t the language but the different school system (knowledge rather than skills based, not much practical stuff, lots of memorising what the teachers tells you) and assessment modes (mostly ongoing oral tests). Also worth thinking about compatibility if you want to slot back into the U.K. system later.

Hi @OhRosalind I've been lurking around here hoping for some encouraging posts. What age do you think there's a good chance for kids to be able to learn Italian and make friends at state school? Is 11, 12 too late?

How did you find the social life in Florence, were you able to make friends? How about work, did you or your DH find work easily? Thanks for your help.

Just leaving this here... British friends who live in Italy share it a lot!

@mochimochidotti we were only in Florence for a short time, now we’re in a smaller Tuscan city.
I think language is the main barrier to friendships/work/schooling, although I don’t know post-brexit rules. Florence, and to a lesser extent places like Lucca and Siena have a fair amount of English speakers and English-related activities. Generally, people move around less so are often near to family and childhood friends, which means making friends with locals rather than can be a slower process. Lots of Italians I know use English professionally and speak perfectly well but believe their English is dreadful and are embarrassed about using it socially. In my experience they really appreciate you learning Italian and are pretty forgiving of mistakes.

The family I mentioned that attended state school had kids aged around 10, 12 and 14 I think, so it’s possible, but not easy and probably depends a lot on the school and the kids’ personalities too. There is a website/Facebook group called something like “moms 4 moms in Florence” which would have people with experience of older kids integrating, different schools etc.

DH is from Tuscany so found work through family, I did a tefl and taught initially (easy to find and good from a social perspective but crap pay and conditions) then found other work through personal contacts (the Italian way!) and working remotely with clients elsewhere in the EU. But Brexit has complicated everything and I don’t know what the rules are now.

Tuscany (Italy too but each area is so different) is beautiful and life here is great in lots of ways but it definitely isn’t a holiday and even now I speak good Italian (and with an Italian husband to explain how things work and a cute toddler to charm people!) I find it challenging sometimes, especially the bureaucracy which can be crazily inefficient, time consuming and obstructive. Dealing with the bank, post office, utilities, council etc sends my blood pressure soaring. Health is very good though.

Oops that was a bit long!

Join the FB group UK 'Citizens' rights in Italy - Beyond Brexit' for info on what documents you need as a post brexit resident. The group is a wealth of knowledge.

Italy is great, I 've lived here for nearly half my life but be prepared for a lot of frustration. It'll make you realise how easy it is to get things done in the UK. My blood pressure reaches boiling point too with the bureaucracy. You can't just pick up the phone or send an email to get things done. Agree with the comment, the healthcare is great too, Doctors here are very serious and factual, no bedside manner.