Is living abroad living up to ur expectations ???

[michymama]

Hi, I've always wanted to live in Italy since I was a kid. We've been in sicily now for 6 years and I'm some what disillusioned. I'm tired of hearing about all the coruption and having to live with it too !!! I still love living here and want to stay but sometimes feel so fed up with having to "know" people to get anything !!
Does anybody else every feel like this ?? Is the UK such a great place as I sometimes imagine, or see when I visit ?? Any Italians who have moved to UK how do u view Italy ??

oh, that's near 'artlepool

I know where it is! I live about 20 minutes from there, and I have a good friend in Hartlepool.

brownsuga
Not exactly a room with a view then? You are in the wrong part of Britain, you need to drive about another 5 or 6 hours north. I have heard it said that Scotland is like NZ, just smaller. And a lot less folk than in NE.

Not much in the way of jobs in constructing/engineering though.

ore, does your friend enjoy hartlepool, is she a local?

kbs. i know, scotland feels like home when i go there, i love it. my gg-grand father emigrated to nz from there. have distant rellies in dumfries. we could always move to aberdeen, plenty of our work there. (not sure dh would like that, he's a monkey hanger (hartlepudlian))

She's from the NE and so is her dh, but they lived in London ages. I think she has used the word 'grim' on a number of occasions. I know what you mean about the litter, it's everywhere. and someone comments on my accent at least every day, not in a 'oh, that's interesting,' way, but a 'you're not from these parts, are you?' threatened way. uggggggggggghhhhhhh. but there are nice things about it too.

LilianGish - yes, I understand. My sister is in the same position as you - her husband moves around so she's forever learning new languages/cultures and hasn't worked since she's had children. Her children are also very English despite having a French father and barely ever having lived in England.

I think whether you speak the language or how integrated you are isn't the main thing that decides whether you're happy somewhere or not. I spoke German fluently and without an accent after about 3 months I think. From then on, everyone I met assumed I was German. I learn languages generally very easily and I seem to have a good ear for it. I pick up on facial expression and gesture very fast too. I always have. The language was never a problem for me here - or anywhere I've lived for that matter. Even if you don't speak the local language, you can be happy if you are interacting with people whose society you enjoy with some kind of common language.

The mindset is the problem. In some countries, the sheer difficulty of organising daily life can get you down too.

I've lived in many different countries with different languages spoken and very diverse cultures. You can be totally integrated as I was here from about 6 months on, or live almost entirely in an expat world and be happy or unhappy regardless. You can work or not work, have children, not have children, have a local partner or not. It all influences how you feel but the main factor I think is the mindset of the country you are in and whether it suits your own.

I have certainly lived in many countries where poverty is more prevalent and therefore various related problems exist that are not a major issue in Germany, also where the cultural gap was huge. Nevertheless this is the place I like least and for me, being an expat is the rule not the exception, always has been since childhood too.

What an expat community gives you is instant friends who understand what you are going through. It can be harder to integrate with locals because they are quite happy with their networks that they've had for years.

SSSandy2 - completely agree that the sheer difficulty of organising daily life and achieving what you feel ought to be basic tasks is very demoralising.

My sister "lives again" after moving from Spain to the Netherlands - her daily life is transformed. But it depends on your own circumstances/mindset too, as you say.

I'm sure that in Germany the lack of childcare is a real issue for women coming from France, for example. I suspect the food in Germany isn't great for people coming from France, either.

Here in France I find the logistics surrounding getting children to and from school mind-boggling (I know mothers/nounous who spend 4 hours a day dropping off/collecting because children come home for lunch middle day). And there are other examples of things that are totally inefficient in France and efficient in the UK that mean that time is eroded for no added value.

Actually I can't fault the food here, Anna, but maybe a French person would I dunno.

In their private capacity I wouldn't dream of faulting people either. What I battle with often is the two different faces, the public (totally unhelpful bureaucratic face a person shows) and then the tolerant, friendly, easy-going private face. It seems a very cold, distant, unfriendly, uninterested, even I would say spectacularly rude place, yet it's peopled with individuals who are kind and helpful and decent when you know them personally in a private context. It's a bit weird.

Mind you in real life, I wouldn't dream of criticising Germany or any aspect of German life to any German person here. Now that would be spectacularly rude!

I'm living in a very small village that has asuprising number of non italians, tunisian, german, swiss, austrian, german, french, senegalese. I find I'm more integrated with the other foreigners as here most of the sicilians tend to stay within their family boundries. They are very friendly and make us feel more than welcome, but for example after shcool get togethers are usually non sicilians.
I speak fluent italian and have tried very hard to integrate into life here. I think its very important when u move to another country to try and accept their ways and adapt accordingly. For me part of the fun is learning a new way of life. (feeling a nit more positive about life here today after a good nigts sleep and no more rain !!!)

Tried to post this last night but the site went a bit funny so apologies if this posting pops up again (or words to the same effect).

My "personal integration point" came in Belgium having had a child. Up to then, I had been living in an expat bubble. Now I've got roots!! This has also been helped by the overwhelming warmth of attitude that Belgians have towards children. Also, there's something about learning how another culture raises their children that gives you a much deeper understanding of a country and its people that one would normally experience.

Perhaps Brussels is a bit of a strange example because there are so many expats of different nationalities here: on my street alone their are Finnish, Swedish, French, Spanish, Danish, American, Indian and Belgian families. So one is bound to socialise with other foreigners. In addition, Belgian family life is still quite traditional and the downside of that can be that some don't socialise after work and go home to socialise with their own families/in their own villages at weekends. (Belgian friends have told me that they are initially reluctant to make friends with expats for the pragmatic reason that they tend to leave after two or three years.)

However, since having a child and settling down and buying a house here things could not be more different. DD is integrating at a local school and so are we! The other mothers could not have been friendlier, especially when we make an effort to speak both the local languages and they learn we are settled here for the forseeable future.

Just this morning, taking dd to school, I chatted with the postman, had a gossip with two of our neighbours, gossiped with the concierge lady in the apartments at the end of our road, waved at a colleague from across the street - it was like being on the set of Neighbours (minus the sunshine and fake tan).

Yes, there's too much bureaucracy, it's grey and cold, there's too much litter and dog sh*t on the pavement and customer service in shops can be lacking to put it mildly ...but there are good and bad sides to every country and in the end it comes down to what you make of it. For me, the pros of living here far outweigh the cons. I'll always be a bit of an outsider but it is now "home". The only weird thing now is going back to the UK. I feel like an outsider there too!!!

Countingthegreyhairs - sounds lovely!

I only started getting homesick when I had my first baby, probably because the things that tend to frustrate me about France are child-related. But I'd still rather be here than in the UK...

I think

What sort of child-related things Castille (if you don't mind me asking?)

(apologies if I'm hi-jacking Michymama)

A nice positive post, countingthegrayhairs

That kind of sums up my feelings about living here. There are pros and cons but at the moment the pros outweigh the cons. I like that I can drop my DD off at Kindergarten and meet a few folk I know on the way home.

I suppose that I am lucky that I am in an area of Germany that I enjoy living in, there are huge regional differences. We lived in Franconia for 10 years and I loved it there and then for 2 years in Hanover which I hated. The people where we live now are very friendly, that makes such a big difference.

CountingTGH - these are my gripes!

• the lack of daytime groups for mums and babies, which mean that SAHMs like me can feel very isolated (not now, but when DD2 was tiny and we'd just moved to a new town, I was verging on depressed due to loneliness)

• the fact many, if not most, children are in full-time school aged 3 (in this area most schools take them at 2) where they are in a classroom environment with one teacher and one assistant for up to 30 children

• and later on, the one-size-fits-all state education system, where teachers instruct, pupils listen and Conform Or Die is the motto.

For some reason I can't post more than a couple of paragraphs... so here is part 2!

I should counter that outburst with some positives...

So I do like the fact that childcare is subsidised, so that when I did work the bill for our (lovely) nursery didn't eat up my entire wage. I am much happier with the way schools and nurseries (and families) feed children here compared to in the UK. And I like the fact that my DDs - aged 10 and 8 - are learning "proper" things, like World geography and European history, that I certainly didn't do at primary school.

How does that compare to Belgium?!

Fascinating about the regional differences Kinderboo ...

Sorry you had such a tough time when your dcs were little Castille. It's sounds pretty similar to Belgium with the following exceptions:

• the UK expat community is pretty strong here in Brussels and so there's an active branch of the UK National Childbirth Trust which is a life-saver for many English-speaking mothers

• full-time education is not compulsory until 6 but there are free nursery places for every child from 2.5 yrs so most are in school from that age onwards but class sizes are generally much smaller than 30 - and the pre-school education is great

• haven't reached that stage yet but have heard complaints about the 'narrowness' of secondary education and agree totally about the conformism

Positives - education is strong on maths and science and languages of course. Loads of great extra-curricular activities on Wednesday afternoons.

Now bumping this for Michymama hoping for an Italian perspective on UK as feel guilty for hi-jacking ....

I think concerns about education are quite common for expats. I was very concerned when ds started school here in England. We both love it now, and it won't be easy to get used to the Italian system again (we are moving back to Italy in a couple of months, both and ).
On the other hand, I missed the free ecole maternelle here in England. I think it is quite a civilized insitution . I was really surprised that when boasting to English people the fact that in Italy we have freee nurser5y schools the reaction of the majority is of shock, as if children are sent to work in a mine, instead of having fun in an environment different from the home...

Franca - Yes free education at 3 is great, but I don't think the way it is organised here is always appropriate. Large classes mean that children must fit in to a rigid routine at an age when there are enormous developmental differences between them. And even at 3 the emphasis is on doing things the "right" way rather than encouraging imagination and exploration (colouring bananas in yellow, rather than purple, for example - my daughter was told her work was "wrong" despite explaining that she knew bananas were yellow but that she preferred them purple - she was in floods).

Poor dd .
I agree about imagination, in my experience Italian schools (I'm thinking more about primary now, can't remember nursery!) certainly lacked interest in developing children's imagination, especially in arts and crafts (not done enough). We had more opportunities to express ourselves in written compositions, though in time it became more about writing the right things rather than let our imagination run wild. Which I agree is not ideal. I'm more than aware that the British system encourages more debates and individual thinking, and I hope (but doubt) that the Italian system has changed in the last 20 yrs.

Are children at French ecole maternelle expected to learn how to read and write or is it just lots of learning through play?

That sounds a lot like the French system, apart from the fact that creative writing is almost non-existent here, something that I lament (though I have found a tutor for my DDs - an English lycee student who comes once a week to help them with their written English through creative writing, she's great).

French maternelle is learning through increasingly structured activities, over the 3 years. Children don't usually learn to read and write until they start primary school at 6. That's another thing - a friend's daughter was desperate to learn to read when she was 5 and her teacher sternly told her mother that no, she wouldn't teach her, and that under no circumstances should she be taught at home

The govt keep trying to modernise but nothing much has changed in 20+ years.

Isn't the French school day quite long aswell? I remember being aupair in France and picking the 3 and 5 year olds up at 4pm and they set off in the morning at 8am with their dad. Quite along day.
That is the one major thing that I am having problems with living abroad (Germany), the schooling and all the little language problems involved. If we don't leave soon it will only get worse - I can cope with any English leterature and help my dc but when they start on Goethe and Schiller I'll be stuck and have to get outside help.
Before I had dc I could have lived anywhere in the world and could have found the positive side of anything but once you are responsible for your own dc and you know there are better alternatives - it can get tough.I even had quite a good time in the old days in Germany and felt settled even though all my friends were non-German but now I could leave tomorrow without shedding a tear.

'Scuse my spelling

It took a decade of living abroad to make me realise what a truly creative country the UK is!

That's a great idea about hiring a creative writing tutor Castille (notes for future).

It's true that the emphasis placed on the aesthetic and visual arts and creative thinking here in nursery and primary education is woefully lacking.

In general I love living abroad, but roll on purple bananas!!!!