Limited by language

[TheHomesicknessLanguageBarrier]

I'm at a strange impasse.

I'm starting to think that not only am I hemmed in by my language abilty but by the language itself.

I've lived in Germany twelve years, self taught the language as I moved with babies. I work only in German, I study in German (though I've got a wall 2.5 years into the course). My grammar is wonkey but my language is functional and in speech fairly fluent (written is not so good).

I'm starting to think that even if I spoke perfect German it wouldn't be enough to be myself - the language itself feels limiting, or my thought don't fit within it.

Why is there no word for sky in German except the one which also means heaven?

Am I being silly? Anyone else feel like this about living in an adopted language, especially if you only started learning/ speaking the language in adulthood?

No you're not being silly. I think our native language helps shape our personality and the way we think. I'm an MFL teacher, speak 3 languages (including German) and am learning another. I absolutely love learning and using other languages, but I guess I also feel that I'm not fully 'me' when I'm speaking another language. It feels like I'm slightly acting or being a different aspect of myself.

Language is sych a subtle, complex thing. The word choices and cadences of speech say sych a lot about us and as adults we've spent a lifetime developing our own manner of speech. It's not surprising we can't just replicare that in a foreign language!

Oh and sympathies- German grammar is a bit of a bastard!

*such (×2!)

I think there are studies that suggest the way your personality expresses itself is slightly different in each language because of the way it shapes your thoughts (e.g. in German you know the end of the sentence when you start it. In English I never do! I'm therefore more concise, precise and less waffly and annoying in German but much less spontaneous and imaginative). I guess it's even more so with bilingual children, because one language is going to be a talking to adults language and the other is a child language.

The very slight delay when you have to work in a second language definitely kills something though. You have my sympathies. I find my personality still betrays me in lots of hand waving and facial expressions and silly noises instead of words. I'm never going to be subtle and classy and minimalist in any language. Especially when I wave my coffee right out of the cup and down my shirt

It's such an interesting topic though the way we are shaped by our language! I'm currently doing a topic for Spanish A Level on minority languages in Spain and why it's important to support and preserve them. It's made me feel even more strongly about language as a key part of identity.

Sorry OP -that doesn't really help you! I guessthat when you live in the foreign country you eventually start to develop your own spoken style in that language, even if it's grammatically imperfect and always slightly different from a native speaker 's style. Even though I'm a linguist, I've never really had that, because the longest I've lived in another country was 8 months!

I think I do have my own spoken style and speaking isn't really a problem except when conversations get really interesting and what I say isn't quite what I mean because the language warps it. An example being the reason I spotted about the lack of word for sky without the religious overtones of Himmel... Things are a bit stressful and I wanted to say to someone else in the same boat as me that I just happened to look out of the window through the branches of a huge tree outside to the blue sky and doing that made me decide it really doesn't matter what happens with the stressful situation, in the grand scheme of things.

I'm an atheist but using the word Himmel invoked a religious element and the conversation went in a direction I didn't mean and I just thought argh, no, stupid language! Mind you the cultural context is relevant too - I'm in Bavaria, they don't understand the concept of not believing in god anyway...

I'm also fed up because I'm studying and have hit a wall quite near the end, when more complex thoughts have to be explained in writing in a fairly intense exam situation and my brain whirs with ideas but if I try to express complexity under exam conditions I seem to be producing reams of verbal garbage... It's a linguistic issue...

Oh well, have to get back to lectures

The studying must be hard! I'll be doing a speaking exam for Spanish and having to talk about things like immigration, marginalised people in society and young people's engagement in politics. I'm ok on paper, but out loud it's hard to get your thoughts out right!

I've been here for 5 years and still learning the language. A Teppich is a carpet and rug, I can't find a word for each.
I love the word Hamsterkäufe 🐹

There are a couple of really interesting TED talks about this. One thing that stuck out for me was the gender of words. I can't remember the languages but one language a ship is female and they tend to describe them as beautiful and graceful. Another language they are male and get described as strong and powerful.

On the subject of gender there aren't separate words for sex and gender in German, which is actually massively limiting to big areas of important discussion. I have teenagers - I speak English with them but they speak German to all their friends.

There are just less words and concepts that cannot be properly discussed. It's frustrating.

People talk about Bauch Gefühl but mean instinct, the concept of thinking either with heart or head seems different and differently pejorative.

I do far better in spoken conversation than four hour written exams (only one question on the paper) though! I do have a processing delay in German though - no good on the buzzer in quizzes but good if I have a second's thinking time.

Yeah I cant be myself in Danish. When I feel comfortable enough I just start speaking english and they carry on in danish. Although some phrases are better in danish so I keep them.

lazylinguist see I could talk about that - and in fact it's related to my job, I work with Randgruppen including groups who will be voting for the first time in the upcoming local elections (if they happen with Corona). I can't sodding write about it in flowing text under exam conditions though! When I try to argue in writing my German grammar goes out of the window. Perhaps we need a telepathic ability sharing pool or something

StrictlyAFemaleFemale speaking English sounds nice - sadly the only people I know who tell me how good their English is, tell me in German and aren't people I ever get past pleasantries with. Most people actually don't speak especially good English in rural Germany, where I live and work, especially when it's twenty years since they left school. I do speak English and German and French mixed to some of DD's friends, and they speak the same funny mix together (were nowhere near France, it's just a running joke because DD and her friends are the MFL kids having chosen MFL as their specialism for their school leaving certificate). That really doesn't allow me to be myself though, as my French is incredibly rusty and anything important is in German anyway.

I know what you mean OP about not being able to express what you really mean - it's a bit like the poetry aspect of language which is all about the meanings and associations of words and when we're speaking our native language we do t even realise all the connotations inherent in what we're saying.

I have found a flip side though - not one that will help in your exams though - which is that another language's linguistic connotations can expand how we think in English. It can help make new links and i've found Ivan think about things slightly differently than I would have if I just spoke English.

Good luck with the exams - 1 question for 4 hours...

Really interesting thread. Thank you! I used to live in France and found that although my level of language was good, I was simply very functional in it. All the nuance, humour and personality was completely missing from my speech. French also has fewer synonyms than English.

I do love the German word "übermorgen" though. How useful! We need that in English.

I live in the UK and English is my 2nd language. I feel for you all!
Nice isn't a word officially- but everyone is using it???
And then the "you" everywhere, no formal way to address anyone that is not your friend or family??? Especially with colleagues in the workplace.

But what really gets me on a very large scale: don't teach your children that English is a phonological language, it is not!

I do believe that your personality changes with your language. I definitely have an English and a German one.
To me, Himmel doesn’t have religious overtones unless you you imply that dimension. Funny how the precise Germans are fine with all that ambiguity!
On the flip side I have just seen a discussion on whether the concept of “all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy” even exists in German.
This still doesn’t really help you, though. Even when writing academic essays I feel slightly disconnected from English, but I have been in the UK for so long now that my academic German feels a bit of a fraud, too!

Interesting thread.

To help some PP, Teppichboden ist carpet, Teppich ist rug (though often used for carpet if the context makes it clear enough).

Bauchgefühl means instinct, but so does Instinkt, if you want a more formal word. The distinction between thinking with head or heart is expressed in exactly the same way in German. (mit dem Kopf oder dem Herz entscheiden).

I get the Himmel conundrum. I was relieved to finally have two words when I learned English. But please don't be so certain of the religious beliefs of Bavarians. There are many atheists among us (most people I know).

As someone who has completed higher education in my second and third language, for writing I found it very useful to find 'sentence frames' that I could slot my ideas into. I'd find a couple of good introductions for example and try rewriting them with my own ideas. It gave me a real feel for how that aspect of writing (a good introduction) worked in the language.

Good luck with your studies!

I have found a flip side though - not one that will help in your exams though - which is that another language's linguistic connotations can expand how we think in English.

That is a wonderful concept! And quite true, I'm sure.

I'm finding it fascinating being a language learner again at nearly 50, and I'm finding it's making me re-think the way I teach the languages I've been teaching for over 20 years. I was always a great believer that grammar had to be studied and learnt, but I'm doing masses and masses of listening, and have been amazed at how I'm absorbing the grammar and sentence structure kind of by osmosis (which I'd only really believed was possible by immersing yourself in the language by living in the country). Still hard to achieve in a few weekly lessons, but that's why I'm advising 6th formers to do loads of extra listening.

Incidentally, I'm very much an atheist, but it's never occurred to me to be bothered by Himmel. There are lots of words in all languages with more than one meaning. I don't feel that I'm invoking any religioys meaning when I use Himmel to mean sky.

Btw, on the subject of the idiosyncrasies of German, you should watch the 'Rhabarberbarbara' video on YouTube if you haven't seen it. Hilarious!

I feel for you trying to write essays on social aspects! I'm a scientist and actually find it almost easier in another language because it prevents me rambling, going off topic, or using imprecise language. It also helps me keep it so that it's plain language and more easily understandable (because someone with the language ability of an 8 year old wrote it!) But in sciences you can just misspell most English technical words and poetry isn't appreciated! Plus my English is now decidedly European rather than British so I lose so many words talking in English now that it's better to have memorised it in a different language.

When I was an undergrad, I was taught to write an essay plan on the first page of the exam with each main subject that you'll cover and the arguments bullet-pointed with references. You then fill it in the body of the text so you know more or less how many sentences you need for each subsection and how long it will take you to get the argument across. It increases the chance of finishing on time with a tight structure, and if you don't finish, at least all your thought are there for the examiner to see in the plan so you still get some marks. Doesn't make for very beautiful prose though.

Good luck!

I lived abroad for a decade and felt the same for the first 2 years or so. I then finally got to a point where I no longer tried to translate anything, I stopped using a dictionary and instead would ask people to explain new words. I stopped thinking in my first language completely (probably because I never spoke it except on the phone with my parents or during the holidays) and translating those thoughts into the second language. After 4 years or so I no longer felt I wasn't expressing myself the way I wanted, I had become completely fluent in all situations. There were certain phrases from my first language I missed being able to use, but then I also felt certain phrases were missing from my first language!

I can relate OP. I’ve been in Switzerland for 10 years (French-speaking part) and with DH (French) for 14 years. I am fluent in all aspects (C1 certified), but sometimes I still can’t properly express my exact sentiments in French. However, I find it works the other way too and there are expressions and phrases that convey an idea that I can’t fully put into English. I think it’s the nature of language!

A really interesting discussion that I can totally relate to. I'm also in Germany. I'm finding it to be equally fascinating and frustrating trying to learn a second language as an adult. Tbh, I really worry that even when my German is finally 'fluent' I will still feel sort of 2 dimensional... I think the main problem for adults is that your native language is just such an intrinsic part of your being. Whereas my son (was 7 when we moved) has just absorbed a new language and German and English seem to play equal parts in his personality, I very much feel like a different person when I'm speaking German. Sometimes I feel like I'm having some sort of weird outer body experience!

. I stopped thinking in my first language

I never became fluent in my second language, I wasn't there for long enough but I decided that the above was the key to the fluency I did have.
I stopped trying to think in English and it made Spanish a lot easier. It is an odd experience and does change how you think a little.

Ahh the Teppich conundrum. If you don't live in Bavaria but still very south... a Teppich is one of many things like a blanket or a rug or a whole carpeted floor.

I think there are more specific words to certain areas that are used in conversational language, it's definitely more than just an accent or dialect.

OP I totally get you! DH and I both speak more than one language and when we speak with each other we mix all our languages even within a sentence. Some words just don't exist in some of our languages to express what we want to say, and sometimes when they do, it just doesn't feel the same (eg "was auch immer!" doesn't have the same feeling as "whatever!")