Anyone in California/Bay Area? Concerns and questions

[sweetvamp]

Hi there, I've name-changed on MN for this but I'm a longtime user. I'm an ex-expat (originally from UK, spent some time in Germany, now living back in the UK). My DH is in a specialist scientific field and has the possibility of a job offer in Berkeley, CA. I have visited LA and SF when I was younger and enjoyed both places, but it was a while ago. I think there are upsides to giving it a go, and it would be very good in terms of DH's career.

Here are my issues/facts to consider and questions.

1. The package would include full medical and relocation, which is good. However the salary has not been fully confirmed. We know it would be above $100k but not too high above. Looking at industry stats, we think we could ask between $120-160k. We are well aware of living costs and expensive rentals in the Bay Area. I don't currently bring in much money myself (I am an artist, so the amount is fairly negligible). But we have no children and no current plans to have any. No car (I'll get to that again in a moment!). I have no debts to speak of DH has very minimal debt (small student loan and credit card). We have a mortgaged house in the UK which we would rent out. We have done some calculations taking California taxes into account, and it seems doable, but I would like insight from MNers already in the Bay Area. How does $120-160k sound? We would be looking to rent in Alameda, Walnut Creek or Lafayette, in the region of $3k/month.

1. I am concerned about the commute to his potential workplace. Neither of us drive or own a car. The places I am looking at to rent are vaguely walkable areas (so a few shops nearby). He can commute from Walnut Creek (for example) to Berkeley on public transit. It would take about an hour each way, which is fine, but he would need to change at MacArthur BART and get on a different train, then a bus journey. Obviously we're both used to public transport, but I've heard a lot of scary things about BART and how unsafe it is (including three murders in a week last year). He would only use the system at busy commute times and not at night, but I am still concerned (mostly about violent crime and assaults, rather than pickpocketing). Can anyone tell me about their experiences with BART, especially in the suburban areas and going through Oakland? Most anecdotes I've read make it sound like a last resort for people who can't drive, but I don't know how much that is overblown.

1. The other option is things like commute carpooling, Uberpool, or of course DH learning to drive and sorting out a car eventually (especially if we decide to stay in California - his funding would be for 3-5 years initially). This is a worry for me as well - even though the commute would be quick, I know the traffic is a nightmare and that speeding drivers can be ridiculous in the area. As DH would be a new driver, I would worry about him being injured or worse in an accident (even if he's careful, the roads seem insane). It probably seems I'm overly anxious, which I am, but fatalities just seem so frequent even compared to UK motorways. I once had a very near miss in a taxi on the freeway going to Santa Monica, luckily the cab driver was able to swerve slightly to avoid a speeding car that almost crashed into the side of us. He was very apologetic but it's stuck with me.

1. Again with the safety (sorry) but how is Berkeley to work in? I already decided I don't fancy living there (still sky high rents and it's not even SF!), but I've read such disparaging things about the city in general because it's sandwiched between Oakland and Richmond (mainly about gun crime, drugs, assault).

Any reassuring words or reality checks would be much appreciated! I don't mean to sound down about the place, I do love what I've seen of California, I just want to be realistic about what life would be like there.

Thank you in advance.

I am not in the Bay Area, in LA, but there are a few things here that strike me as issues. #1 is not driving. Even if you live somewhere walkable to a few shops it is virtually impossible to live in CA without at least 1 car if not 2. Life is so much easier (and cheaper) if you can drive to a supermarket or Target and stock up on food and household goods. You have no kids which makes it a bit easier but if you don't drive you will miss out on so many of the good things CA has to offer - hiking, visiting National Parks, the coastline, wine country, the list goes on and on. The cost of living in CA is high but the abundance of things to do makes up for it but with no car these things are virtually impossible.

I know many people in the Bay Area and no one is particularly scared of BART of Berkeley, I think you may be hearing greatly exaggerated things from people who love to complain about the Bay Area (lots of these people around) because they are burned out and the cost of living is getting to them. It is generally considered a safe place to live/work.
While his salary doesn't sound that great, if you have no kids then you should be able to rent a decent place in that price range, you don't have to worry about school districts etc which gives you more options.

I live in Oakland, and take the BART (from MacArthur Bart Station) everyday to commute to SF and walk home from it late at night.

I too was scared of living in Oakland but it's actually a really chill city and I find it much safer than San Francisco, I would probably not go to San Francisco if it wasn't for work as there is nothing Oakland can't provide. I love Berkeley, not sure what's the bad rumours regarding Berkeley are about because it feels really safe, it's very much a Uni town though, were the average population age is probably early 20's.

120k to 160k is good enough for two people without dependents but if you are going to live in places like Alameda, Walnut Creek or Lafayette, you are quickly going to realize that you will need a car so you don't get bored senseless, as public transportation in those places is limited and transiting from the Bart from those can be a pain, especially during rush hour.

BART is alright, I don't feel more scared in it than I would other places but yes, there is crime and stuff happening sometimes but it's everywhere in the US, crime is a thing in the US and people getting stab or shot are common news (not necessarily in the Bart, but yes sometimes!). Cars break in are rampant in the Bay though, so that's something you need to be aware of.

The stories about crime are grossly exagerated, I live in Oakland, supposedly a scary place full of crime, but it's lovely, we have a beautiful lake and I find it much more laid back than SF and find the quality of life much better, I walk everywhere (though mind you without a car distances are long and public transportation not as good as it could be!) at anytime of the day/night and don't fear for my life.

You can definitely survive on 120k+ in the Bay, you can also probably afford to live closer to work and I would, you will waste so much money in Uber and public transit commuting from an hour away when Oakland, Berkeley, Piedmont or even SF, probably have more to offer for a couple in your age range.

Hello, thank you both for the advice. Since posting, I've done some calculations based on numbers that an ex-Berkeley (expat) resident gave me. Apparently the tax on foreigners would be about 45% of the annual paycheck rather than 30%ish for American citizens? He also suggested we would need to put at least 5% in a retirement account and at least 5% in a health savings account, to cover surprise costs. When I looked at the numbers, that seemed tight even on $160k. My friend suggested only looking at apartments around $2k a month but as you can imagine this is hard to come by for somewhere nice. And even then, there's not a lot of breathing room. I'm pretty worried about having the employee health coverage and then finding it doesn't cover what I need it to. What do you guys pay in tax and put into savings?

I used to live in Northern California. It is a heavily car dependent state, once you step outside of SF/Berkeley/Oakland it's very difficult to get anything done without a car.

I've never heard anything that foreigners pay higher tax, can't even imagine on what basis that would be. Unless your friend is from a country where there is double taxation (UK does not have this so you would be exempt from any income taxes to Britain).

Berkeley is a nice city, it's home to one of the best universities in the US, full of young people and academics. It's not particularly dangerous. There is in general across Northern California an issue of homelessness however.

I live in the Bay Area near San Jose. I don't know anybody here that doesn't drive and I just can't imagine how that would work. It is miles to get anywhere and there are no little corner stores for supplies, everything is in big malls.

Health insurance is a huge cost. My husbands insurance covers most of ours, but not 100% and we have copays and deductibles on everything. This can add up depending on what medication you are taking and what appointments you need.

I think $120k is way too tight if you want any decent quality of life here, even $160k would be pushing it.

You will need a visa that enables you to work here at all and then you will need to get an employment card before you can do anything - does his visa allow you to work?

Also re your UK rental, bear in mind you will need to change the mortgage to a buy to let and that you will need to complete UK tax returns. Also, that HMRC have changed the rules so you cannot offset all the mortgage interest off against the income any more.

I would check your tax rates, I don't know where you got the 45% from, are you including social security?

Hi, my friend's exact words were: 'i would calculate with your effective tax rate to being around 45 percent (9.5% state tax + 33% federal, minus some tax bracket stuff, plus some social insurance). as foreigners, you're not entitled to any tax rebates so you will be taxed more than the locals.'

So apologies, I basically meant that we wouldn't be entitled to tax rebates.

I wouldn't be working when over there, so no need for employment cards and such.

I wouldn't listen to your friend about taxes, first of all taxes are progressive so the whole income is not taxed at that rate. For a married couple I think the highest federal tax bracket you would be in at that salary level is 24% and even then your whole salary isn't going to be taxed at that rate. And I don't know what they are talking about rebates, there aren't tax rebates that locals get to take advantage of, every tax payer files their taxes at the end of the year. There are deductions that you can take for various things but most people these days take the standard deduction and this doesn't differ for foreigners. There may be some small differences but you certainly won't be paying as much tax as your friend says

Thanks for the info! I will try doing some recalculations and see how we go.

Agree with britinnyc1 your friend's calculations aren't correct. Here is a calculator, if you put in $160K living in California and married, it calculates a total effective tax rate including state and local taxes of 25%.

smartasset.com/taxes/income-taxes#twPbvLiMXv

Have friends living in that exact area OP and we visit often. My thoughts.

-that's a pretty low wage for California.

• 3k budget is low to rent anything decent in that area. All the areas you mentioned are usually big 3 bed houses for families starting around the 4 to 5k pcm Mark. They are very popular with highly paid executives.
• the BART is fine if you are travelling in commuter hours. Even outside of that too. Huge numbers of people use Bart to get to work and it's no different to the Tube
• Oakland is funky, new influx of young profs who can't afford SF or the suburbs. Yes keep your wits about you like you would in any City
• BUT. California and especially the places you mention is impossible to live without a car. Most people in Walnut Creek or Lafayette are driving to the Bart station. If you look on Google Maps you'll see the stations are about 25 mins walk from any residential areas over the freeway. You'll see the huge car parks there too. Especially important is that these places are built on bloody mountains and the streets have no pavements so it's just unpleasant. No car means you cant be popping out for dinner unless you fancy a 25 minute uphill hike in the dark in 29c. That's the other issue too. That area of Cali gets searingly hot. Not unknown to be in the 30's for months on end and still steamy at night while SFO and Oakland are 10c cooler so factor that into a walk too.
• car share great idea and it benefits the driver as they get to use the fast lane but no idea how you'd arrange that.

Not California OP but I am on the west coast and I genuinely loled at the idea of neither of you driving. Technically it's possible but it will be a gigantic pain in the arse to get things done. Plus you'll miss out on so much as others have said.

I'm not well up on living costs in the Bay Area because it's its own crazy bubble. However, I will say there tends to be quite a divide on Mumsnet in ideas about affordability between those who are used to high salaries and generous expat benefits packages and those of us who come out under our own steam and earn ordinary wages. It is possible to live well on an amount some on Mumsnet would consider abject poverty but is actually a very average wage. Clearly everyone in the Bay Area isn't making 200k a year.

OK, I've done some new calculations. I'm still a bit confused whether I'm missing anything, as the remainder every month sounds like a lot to me. I must have failed to account for some costs?

Using smartasset calculator, on 160k, married, and making a 6k contribution per year to an IRA, we'd come out with $115,230 a year. That's $9,602 a month.

Rent: up to $4k.
Food: $1000.
Utilities: $300.
Phone payments: $200.
Internet: $100.
Savings account (for healthcare emergency costs): $500.
Car payment (in the future): $500.
Gas: $100.

I have rounded all these up and overestimated some, based on cost of living calculators online. With these costs, we would be left with $2,902. That doesn't seem like a small amount in my opinion but perhaps I'm just being dense and forgetting things? Obviously on 120k it would be much lower, but 160k is the minimum we would ask for.

P.S. I think I worked out that my friend (actually friend of a friend) didn't realize we are actually married!

P.S. again, sorry, I forgot our estimated healthcare contributions! Let's be generous and put it at about $1,200. Still leaves us with $1,702.

Not lived in the Bay Area but have friends there and have lived in the US - neither of you driving could be a major issue, we managed 9 months before we relented and bought a car (we had rented them even before that) I never drove but as long as one of you can the other can get by on public transport in major cities, but looking back my life would have been so much easier if I could have learned. Second is cost, it's so expensive, everything costs a lot more, when we returned to the U.K. our shopping bill dropped by 1/3 for instance, phones, broadband etc all costs a lot more, and heating oil was far more than gas here. But it's an amazing experience to be able to travel and work. Just a note, unless visa law has changed, you won't be able to work at all unless hes on a scientific exchange visa (j) as corporate visas (h) don't allow spouse work visas

Ps our monthly health insurance was $700 10 years ago! Check what sort of healthcare package they offer, some you have to pay 10% of the ridiculously high bill whereas others are HMO's. Don't forget a budget for travel, no point living in CA if you don't explore!

I would much rather Berkeley than walnut creek, op.

I'm starting to look mostly at San Francisco or Alameda now. DH is looking at starting to drive so hopefully we could sort that out before we went over. I'd like to learn too but I have a bunch of health issues that prevent me doing so.

@stucknoue would you be able to estimate a breakdown of your bills and stuff if you remember? or have another look at my breakdown and see if it makes sense? I have already anticipated not being able to work while there so that's not as much of an issue.

I'm starting to look mostly at San Francisco or Alameda now. DH is looking at starting to drive so hopefully we could sort that out before we went over. I'd like to learn too but I have a bunch of health issues that prevent me doing so.

I'm not in the bay area but am in the US and this struck me - if you don't drive and don't work outside the home you will be very stuck in the kind of places you can afford to live. Maybe I am wrong and you can afford an apartment in a vibrant downtown walk to everywhere area but it seems tight to me.

@pallisers

If you look above, you can see my calculations on the income and outgoings we would have. The remainder left over is more than we have currently. We have been looking at a place on the marina in Alameda for about $3,200 a month. I wouldn't mind being stuck in the house during the day anyway, as that's what I do most of the time here (in my art studio).

Learn to drive in the UK but take your test in the states. It's much easier and cheaper there plus you can get an automatic.

I'm guessing your husband will get US style annual leave - It's usually really crap. Can he try to negotiate longer holidays so you can make the most of your time there.

You will absolutely need a car. Also if your OH learns to drive it won't transfer here. If you are living here he will have to sit a California computer based test and a behind the wheel test. Car insurance and car payments can be expensive - this will eat up a large % of your surplus.

I can't see you accounting for any holidays, clothes, eating out, etc.

Also as you will have no credit history you might have to put deposits on things like gas, electric and a larger rental deposit.

To give you an idea our monthly costs are
Rent - $5000 - we used to rent for less than this, but it was tiny and we needed more space
Food - $2500 - this is groceries, toiletries and eating out
Utilities - $400 - this is gas, electric, water
Internet - $100
Mobile phones - $150

We then have renters insurance, car payments, car insurance, copays and deductibles on our insurance, swimming pool subs, holidays, clothes, hairdressers

Your estimate of $500 per month for car payments is too low. You will have no insurance history, so this could easily be $150 a month, plus leasing a car will probably be at least $500 per month. You may also have to pay rent for a parking space.

You also don't have other travel costs in your figures. What about BART and trips home?

$160k is doable, but will be tight for 2 people and you want to make the most of being here and enjoy the moment

Hi, thanks for the breakdowns. A BART monthly ticket would be about $90 I think. We don't have a lot of spending money as it is - we rarely eat out or anything. Any spending money would just be what was left over at the end of the month. If that's $500, cool. If $200, also cool. I cut and colour my own hair and DH's, do my own nails, etc. As for holidays, I'd be happy if we could afford the car and drive somewhere to visit friends in the surrounding area.

How much is your renters' insurance, if you don't mind me asking?

@Turpy he would be very flexibly working in a start-up, so long working hours won't be an issue. He could probably negotiate annual leave with the company quite easily.

Wrt crazy traffic - it always seems worse for non-drivers.

I think your H should learn to drive - he will just get used to whatever the freeways throw at him and dodging the crazies will be second nature to him in no time.

I think you should consider getting a car. Maybe initially you could get away with Uber or Lyft for grocery shopping, or you could join Zipcar. You will be invited to spend time with your H's future colleagues at BBQs and on trips. There are so many beautiful places to see and enjoyable activities to participate in it would be a pity to miss out. You will need to be able to get around under your own steam.

YY to doing the driving test in the US. Your H will have to do this anyway and will need to practice driving on the right, know all the road signage, all the stuff in the Rules of the Road.

Your main concern should be pre-existing medical conditions - what does the future health insurance company deem a pre-existing condition and are your conditions covered, if so to what extent?