What's better, Secondary school in France or England ?

[zebredee]

Looking to choose between doing secondary school in France or England, state system
What's better ?

It will depend on the child and on the school. French state collèges and lycées are cruelly underresourced but French Private Catholic Schools, which are heavily subsidised by the state, can be very good value for money.

Better in which way?

I've no knowledge of the UK system really (don't think my schooling 30 years ago counts!) My two DS's have been schooled entirely in France, and my eldest is in 1ere doing OIB ES at a public lycee. It's hard work and long days but his peers have been accepted to Science Po uni's in France, or Cambridge, Edinburgh, Durham etc in the UK. This is OIB which is seen as more work intensive than the regular Bac. As an example, we went to the open day at Glasgow Uni back in Octobre - the course he is interested in (Politics/Philosophy/Economics) was asking for 17 with a regular French Bac and 14/15 with OIB. Does that help at all?

Scottish universities ask for higher grades in the French Bac than do English universities because they have far less interest in getting bums on seats due to the fees situation.

Which may or may not change from 2020! (which is the year my son is going) No tuition fees for European students has only been confirmed for this years intake.

It’s worth checking out the application statistics for Scottish universities. I haven’t looked at those for Glasgow but Edinburgh’s application statistics are a real eye opener. If you pay international fees, the probability of an offer shoots up - in some cases from the teens to around 90%.

That's interesting MariaNovella we're only just starting on the Uni path but I will definitely look into it.

It depends where you/they expect to live and work as adults. If you want to be qualified and have a regular career path in France, then you really have to be "in" by doing secondary school and finishing it with a Bac.

Especially with UK leaving the EU, I would not want to try to get into a regular career path in France as a young adult and thereafter, with a secondary school career in England, A levels, plus an English Bachelors degree. It may work for Engineering or Economics though, regardless.

It is not even clear to me once UK is not longer part of the EU, whether a UK Bachelors degree will allow direct access into a Masters in France or to sit the various concours.

I am not sure if with an IB you can get places on good French tertiary education courses and enter the various concours.

Definitely look closely at application statistics, which are increasingly available on university websites. You can estimate the probability of receiving an offer for a given course, providing you meet the stated minimum admissions criteria, with far more precision than you imagine when starting out.

PPE is incredibly popular among French Bac applicants so he needs to stand out. Do you lie about the pre-university PPE courses run by Debate Chamber? Might be helpful.

Not lie! Know

I am not sure if with an IB you can get places on good French tertiary education courses and enter the various concours.

École Jeannine Manuel claims success getting IB students into French HE but I’m not sure whether there is any longitudinal data yet to compare career outcomes. EJM has been quite gung ho in the past about advising its pupils to go to university in the US but is more conservative now that there are returnees to France who aren’t able to find employment with US degrees.

plus an English Bachelors degree. It may work for Engineering or Economics though, regardless

An English BSc Economics or MEng is not enough to build a good career in France. A proper Masters degree is essential. However, it is not too hard to get into French Finance Masters courses after a good English Econ or Engineering undergraduate degree.

However, it is not too hard to get into French Finance Masters courses after a good English Econ or Engineering undergraduate degree.

Yes. But this is as now, when their file is treated as an "EU student with an EU Licence (gained in UK)". What about post-Brexit ?

And that is for the ones that translate easily like Economics or Engineering; not talking about Teaching or Law or Medicine qualifications.

France and UK are so near yet so far when it comes to career paths and professional qualifications. It must be very difficult OP for you to decide now something that will impact greatly for your DCs whole career, or at least the first 10 years of it, plus DCs family life.

It is very tricky for bi-cultural children, indeed all children, to predict where they may end up living and having their family lives. In many countries round the world, you can be confident that an English university degree will stand them in good stead. France is one of the exceptions.

Yes. But this is as now, when their file is treated as an "EU student with an EU Licence (gained in UK)". What about post-Brexit ?

Those Masters courses recruit from all over the world as it is - they don’t give special access to EU degrees.

Recognition of professional qualifications post-Brexit, of the sort that give access to regulated professions, is another issue. TBH, although this technically quite straightforward in EU law, prejudice is rife among employers and clients towards qualifications from institutions and bodies whose value they have no way of measuring. I’m not sure that the globalisation of the education market is going very well: there is a lot of protectionism among high ranking institutions and professions and, simultaneously, mushrooming of an “international” travel agent approach with unsuspecting students being shunted around the planet between for profs institutions with no proper accreditation and little proven access to job markets.

For profit

Thank you for your answers .it's hard given how young they are to make such a decision.
They're currently in France but the system seems so negative to me, very strict and quite demoralising. We feel like we are always being told off as parents and the kids are shouted out and often humiliated by the French teachers.
I hadn't really considered uni admissions at this stage but it is if course very relevant
They have both nationalities so are lucky in that whatever Brexit turns out to be their rights should be unaffected

I have sent you a pm.

zebredee I think - sadly - it is often just luck.

We haven't really experienced the negativity you mention, but over the years I have encountered perhaps hundreds of parents who say the same thing. Is there an alternative school nearby? Do you have the option to easily go back to the UK for their schooling?

We've been here 15 years and both mine started in the French system at 2 and are in 1ere and CM2 now. I'm happy to chat more if you think it will help.

MariaNovella I have spent hours looking at application statistics since you posted the other day!

I don't think there's an easy answer to this.

Bright kids who have a wide range of subject interests - France, hands down. My DD could never have chosen 3 A levels. She's in her first year of higher ed (in France) and is only now starting to narrow down her options - and it is likely that she won't be taking the specialisation she had envisaged (she was going to do social sciences but has discovered a passion for history and history of art!)

The new bac has changed things a bit, but it's still broader than in the UK and there are good higher education options that enable bright students to delay specialisation. My DS isn't sure yet if he wants to do maths, physics, engineering or computer science and he will have at least 2 years post-bac to gradually whittle down his options.

For kids with any learning disabilities then I would have said the UK is better, although this may be changing (increasingly under-resourced SEN provision in the UK and some modest improvements in attitudes here).

A lot depends on your local schools too. My kids went to a small public collège (middle school) with mostly great teachers but a very deprived intake. Overall very good school with a high "added value". Other collèges local to us vary from OK to complete jungles.

Lycée has been all right, it's a very mediocre school in terms of results, but the teaching is mostly competent and my DD got her bac with an exceptionally high grade. However my kids are academically able and navigating the French system is a lot easier with kids who get good results without too much effort. We have shamelessly used options to improve the chances of our kids being in half-decent classes - Latin and option bilangue at collège, bachibac (double French-Spanish diploma) for DD at lycée, and an LV3 for DS.

As for French higher ed, very few Brits seem to go for it probably because most of them don't understand the way the system works, but it can be a good option if you can navigate the system.

Selection procedures are different to the UK (your final bac grade is irrelevant as long as you pass), it's all based on continuous assessment and (particularly) the student's rank in the class for each subject. This means that for good but not brilliant students being in a highly rated or selective class at lycée can actually be a disadvantage.

As for French higher ed, very few Brits seem to go for it probably because most of them don't understand the way the system works, but it can be a good option if you can navigate the system.

U.K. higher education has far fewer risks of year repetition or failure than the French HE system. The British are not accustomed to managing such a high level of risk.

Selection procedures are different to the UK (your final bac grade is irrelevant as long as you pass), it's all based on continuous assessment and (particularly) the student's rank in the class for each subject.

Though all this is changing with the Bac 2021. Individual bac grades will count, as will an applicant’s subject profile, for all applications to HE.

shellyandlayla - and have you been able to draw any conclusions?