Another opportunity - Germany

[Juanbablo]

A few years ago we almost moved to Germany for dh's job. A combination of factors meant we didn't go ahead.

We have been offered the opportunity again and we are in a much better position all round to accept.

But I'm so worried about the dcs. I know it's a great opportunity for them but how can I make it easier for them? They will be 11, 9 and 5 by the time we go. They are resistant to the idea but I'm hoping that they will realise that it's a better life for all of us.

Should I get them German lessons? What else can I do to prepare them? Any tips on living in Germany? What do I need to know?

I've visited the town we would move to and dh stays there one week a month and loves it. He has good friends there who I have met and get on well with so I've no doubt we will have good support.

Also- just an aside, I see you mention chosen school. Do you know that you don't get to choose the school here? I mean unless you are going private obviously, and private schools have a mixed rep here, it's pretty different to the uk.

Six months isn't very long in settling in or language immersion terms, to be fair. It can actually be a really tough time as you feel like you've been there long enough to pick stuff up but everything is still so frustratingly foreign and impenetrable. It does get better. I wouldn't really expect DC to be involved in extracurricular activities for about 12-18 months. It also helps massively if you can find a "Ganztagschule" although I know these are much harder to find in Bavaria. And yes, while you will be limited to your local Grundschule for the younger two, unless there's a good reason to apply to a different one, (non-native German speaker needing Ganztage provision is a good argument BTW), there should be some element of choice for the older although you are more likely to be accepted if it's a closer school to your house. In addition most bilingual schools are private so you don't have the school district issue there, but an issue of costs, admissions, etc.

Moving to Bavaria without German is a bit like jumping into the deep end of the pool without knowing how to swim! Since OP is planning to do some German lessons and also move to an area which isn't quite so intense, it's a different scenario, really.

Goosegettingfat To be fair, Bavaria is a rather different little world. It's called "Freistaat" with good reason. Education is a federal, not a national, issue and Gesamtschulen are very rare in Bavaria.

I'm sorry that your children are struggling so much. Are there no English-speaking clubs around where you are?

My German cousins live in Koln. Without exception they think the streaming system at age 10 is nonsensical and changing school after the decision is made is nigh on impossible. I myself moved to another European country aged 14 but I went to an international school. It took about 5 years to speak the language with proficiency. If you were able to send your eldest child to bilingual/international school I would think that to be the far kinder option.

Yes I will totally grant you that Bavaria is extreme- I actually couldn't remember whereabouts op was thinking of till I flipped back, sorry. I was more trying to illustrate, maybe not very well, that it can be a very harsh change for the dc, even more so in the case of op's age of dc, and this does rather impact on the experience for everyone, as we have found out. No, no English-speaking clubs here. We are literally (welsh accent!) the only English-speakers in the village!
But anyway- don't wish to thread hijack: back to you op. I was only including my own background to illustrate that I know very well what the potential pitfalls are here.

No I welcome all opinions and experiences! I did say I was very worried about it all. We haven't "chosen" a school, I just kind of meant the school that they would go to. I kind of assumed it would be similar to the UK in that you would be assigned your nearest school if there were spaces?

I am prepared for a very harsh change and I am concerned how we will all cope.

I don't think I would have felt as comfortable and at home here without finding a group of English speakers, to be fair. And I probably do rely on them a bit too much, which keeps me from integrating more fully. But it makes such a difference to have people who you can speak your own language to, and then a huge difference on top to have people who understand what it's like not to have family support around. For example I have about four people on standby offering to look after DS when I go into labour. DH is a bit anxious about this because in his opinion that's something that family does, not friends - but we don't have that option. I'm grateful for it.

Juanbablo your youngest will go to Kindergarten for a year and then be assigned the nearest school, or go directly to the nearest school, depending on when their birthday is and whether you decide to ask for them to do a year of Kindergarten to get their German up to speed.

Tbh I'm a fan of integrating properly but it will be really hard for your older 2 to be thrown straight into the German system and they will probably be very miserable for a year or so.

There is a grammar school type system in Germany. It varies massively by state, but in year 4 (not UK year 4, but the 4th year of "Grundschule" which they start at age 6 - very roughly the school year when they are 10 years old) they are constantly tested throughout the year. The results of the tests in German, maths and "HSU" (which is essentially geography/history/a bit of basic science like the water cycle) dictate which secondary they can apply for. If they have the right grades the school has to take them as long as its within area - it doesn't have to be the nearest.

I'm in Bavaria (see above) so anything else I say won't be generalisable, but the above is true, with the caveat that some states have "Geesamptschules" mentioned above, which are comprehensives and would make your life easier.

A former acquaintance of mine wangled her two secondary age children places at Gymnasium (grammar school) as guest students for their first year in Germany. This is sometimes possible for English or French native speakers because of the perceived mutual benefit - essentially they are foreign exchange students although they can live with you locally not a host family! However after the end of the first year they were essentially kicked out because their German hadn't reached a good enough standard and their grades were not good enough. However this might be the best thing to try for your eldest if you do want to use the native system - at Gymnasium there may be children willing to try to speak English to her or him.

A child can be booted out of the Gymnasium (grammar school) or Realschule (here in Bavaria, I'm not sure all states have Realschule) if they get a "6" in any subject (grades go from 1 - very good, down to 6 - fail) or 5s in 2 subjects on their end of year report. Here in Bavaria there is quite a lot of movement between schools - a lot of it is kids being kicked out of Gymnasium and joining their year in Realschule or even having to move down to the year below in Realschule. Similarly every year one or two children from each Realschule class fail and have the choice of repeating the year at Realschule or moving "down" to Mittleschule, which is the only school open to all students regardless of grades.

Mittleschule students do move "up" to Realschule often here - but again it involves repeating a year. A lot of children who go to mittleschule for year 5 work hard and get 1s and are allowed to go and do year 5 again at Realschule, and continue at Realschule. This happens again going into year 7. Its harder later as the subjects studied start to diverge.

I sent both my older kids to Realschule despite scraping the grades needed for entry to Gymnasium - this was there choice, and having tutored various failing Gymnasium kids put me off Gymnasium except for very high flyers. A lot of kids are tutored to within an inch of their lives and pushed and can't hack it, and have a miserable 8-9 years or get thrown out for failing anyway, which can't do anyone any good! From Realschule you can still go to Gymnasium for the last 3 years (sometimes repeating 1 year) or an equivalent to 6th form college (Fachoberschule) although I think this only exists in Bayern and Berlin.

• apologies for my massively weird spelling of gesamt! Having a fight with autocorrect!

and there/ their which is all my own error!

Thank you for all the info. Ds1 is academically average. He had worked extremely hard to catch up. When he started school he was above average until yr2 and he had a pretty rough few years. We moved house and schools last year and he has really come on and is working at the expected level at the moment. This wouldn't be enough for him to go to Gymnasium. Plus we have SN in the mix. It's super worrying for me. DC's don't even know it's on the cards yet so no concern for them!!

Looks as though your eldest really would be much better off in a bilingual school Juan . If you put your DC2 into a monolingual German school you'd probably be best putting him or her back a year to avoid doing the important final year of primary before they've had a chance to get their German up to a decent level.

The up side is, again speaking only from personal experience, there are a wide range of ages in any school class. My eldest is in a class with an age range of 3 years from youngest to oldest (secondary). Thismeans older kids don't "stick out" the way they would in the UK.

I think your older children will find a move to a German school very difficult.
We lived in Germany (Frankfurt) for ten years. Both of us spoke fluent German and the DC were also fluent orally when we moved though they had been educated in the French system. We had a nightmare looking for places for the older boys then 11 and 10 because of the move to grammar school at 10+ . We were basically told that they would have to be prepared to repeat the first year, would have to do English and French with the beginners despite being completely fluent as this would keep their grades up, and were offered no extra help with German. There was no flexibility for migrant children - a stance strongly supported by the Gymnasium parents who barely concealed their desire to keep their schools white and German. Foreignors should send their children to private schools if rich enough or to the second and third tier schools where they could learn a trade. We were really shocked.
In the end we sent the older boys back to UK as we were not persuaded that the international schools in the area would deliver for native English speakers. The younger children went to the local German primaries and had a great experience.

This might be an option for you if you can get places

www.europaschule-dortmund.eu/home.html

On the other hand the uncompromising arrogance of some ex pats understandably puts locals backs up. The system is competitive. It's shit that it is, but that's equally shit for everyone. Some expats assume their children should go to gymnasium despite not being up to it at the point in time they want them to go. Being sneery about the options open for children who don't get the grades for gymnasium such as repeating years, Realschule and Mittleschule is going to annoy other parents and teachers. Assuming that your child is above the rules that apply to everyone else does leave you with paying for private international school or leaving the country as the only alternative to lumping it. If an expat child is not fully literate in the community language, of course it puts locals' backs up if that child gets a gymnasium place because their parent demands it.