Zurich

[cornettoqueen]

My husband has the option of moving from his senior finance role in the City or moving to Zurich.

We are unsure what to do. He could probably fairly easily move jobs within London to a different company. His current office is threatening to move to the other side of London which would double his commute time so I don't know if that would see him able to be made redundant which would actually be better for us.
The thing is, the company he works for is pretty easy going and the job is ok, if he moved to Zurich it would be a bigger promotion than if he moved in London.
But I have no idea about Zurich. We have a 4 yo who is due to go back to her private school which she has already attended for a year and being an academic school it was effectively like she's already done a year at school (reads, writes etc) she's 5 next year.
I am not too fussed about moving abroad, more that I'm unsure about Zurich. Dd school would definitely take her back if it was all a disaster so that's sorted here. We have a mortgage but again can work around keeping house here plus relocation package to Zurich.
Has anyone done this? Dh doesn't speak German but I have a basic command and understand it being spoken. (Obviously not required for his work)
We are expected to make the decision fairly quickly and can effectively move asap if we said yes. If it wasn't for dd I'd probably go and see what it's like but with her I have to consider uprooting our family and her current education and don't want to do it on a whim. I intend to come back to uk in a few years if it works out so that dd is back in uk private education at 7yo if I still think that's best but may find Swiss schools are better etc.
Sorry this is long but ahhhhhh!

I moved from London to Zurich with a similar aged child and it has worked out well for us - the small child is now a teenager who loves it here!

Your dd would be in kindergarten for the next 1/2 years, probably just doing mornings so there would be lots of time for keeping up with the uk curriculum at home if you choose, or there are international schools. The focus is strongly on developing young children's independence, rather than academic skills.

Zurich really is great for kids - a friend of mine writes a very useful blog and put together some highlights:
www.momstotszurich.com/2015/10/10-reasons-why-your-kids-will-love-switzerland.html

I would think about yourself too - do you have a career you can pursue in Switzerland? Would you be happy being a trailing spouse? It's great that you understand German but be prepared to mainly hear dialect from the locals!

Hope that helps, good luck!

We spent 4 years there. If you want an academic school for a 4 yo you will struggle, whether using local or international school. If you opt for the latter it will cost well over 25000 chf pa. Plenty of expats and many companies have English as their official language, I had no german initially but supermarket labels and documents are usually in french and italian too so can be worked out. You need to check whether employment terms are local or expat, including health insurance, school fees, housing allowance, removals, language classes etc. Everything feels horrifically expensive if you translate prices into sterling so you need a good chf salary. Also consider how you might feel living in a culture in which you have no say and over which you can have little influence.

Thanks so much for the advice! So dh will be on about 190k chf and hopefully that will continue to go up, no idea what that is relative to living costs so am trying to get my head around how renting works etc and ideally would keep property in U.K. Until we decide the move could be permanent the job would be a permanent job with a uk company, there would be a relocation package but serious negotiations would only happen on that once dh decides he wants the job. I wouldn't go without them helping with schooling and some rent paid initially etc which is likely. Feel pretty naive about everything tbh. I'm not afraid to just follow dh but yes would prefer to work myself if we stayed there.
I am an accountant so have no idea if I'd be able to work in Switzerland and will have to do my research there.
To be honest if it was just us two I'd go out there then return to uk if it all fell apart. However the uk school system is so different, dd was four in June and her school expects her to start full time n September and yet Switzerland looks like it will be part time kindergarten for a few years yet. I don't disagree with their system but more concerned if we decided to come back she might be behind in uk.
I've read that the Swiss are fairly reserved people, is it easy to make friends as an outsider? I'm pretty easy going but I do worry that their reserved ways might exclude foreign people.

You would need to look into any work permits. At the moment you should be able to work there as a trailing spouse from within EU but that may change at Brexit or even before if they reintroduce limits on number of expats.

If you use local schools, the hours are not easy to fit around work. Kindergarten is part time. Even older children do a staggered timetable which varies each day with a long lunch break , usually spent at home although there are places which offer a meal and supervision but not on school premises. Wednesday afternoons are left free for activities. International and private schools operate hours nearer to those in UK.

Try asking on yahoo group expatmomsinswitzerland (there may also be a fb group) about cost of living etc.

Thank you I will look up the group. I really like working so would be a shame to not be able to. I have a nanny now but it would appear that's not necessarily a very Swiss custom given that the school etc seem to not work around adults being able to work daytime hours easily! I lived in Germany for a bit and their school system was part time all through high school where I was living so I suppose I'll have to think if I'll survive dd part time every day with no where near the help I currently have .

It depends what you're into, but I think Zurich is very very boring compared to London.

You'll always be an Auslander (foreigner).

It's like living in the past as far as attitudes towards women.

I'm not personally acquainted with the school system but a lot of expats feel it leaves something to be desired - there's a big focus on thinking like others and "consensus."

But the salaries are good and there's definitely a market for accountants.

To me, choosing to live in CH is choosing money and a comfy lifestyle over everything else (like being considered an equal).

Oh and healthcare is private and very expensive but the salaries are high enough to cover the premiums.

I think it's a myth Zürich is boring. Of course it depends what you're into but there are loads of concerts, festivals, street food, art galleries, great bars and clubs, the lake for swimming in the summer, easy access to beautiful countryside and the mountains and fantastic play areas for kids. It is a lot smaller than London and less 'buzzy' I guess. One downside for me is the restaurant scene - it's so expensive to eat out although now I've been here a while I've found a few less expensive options.

Another great thing about here vs London is the excellent public transport. Everything runs on time, no overcrowding, and as it's a small city commute times are short.

The weather is fantastic - it's actually raining today but we've had an amazing summer. The winter months can drag a bit - especially after Christmas - but if you're into skiing that'll help.

There are salary calculators online that will help you work out take home pay on that salary. Don't forget taxes are lower. Homegate.ch will give you an idea of apartment rents (not many people live in houses). The big supermarkets Coop and Migros have online shops for an idea of food prices.

There's a Facebook group 'International Mothers in Switzerland' that could be helpful too. And searching on English Forum for any specific questions.

I don't think my opinion can be called a myth. Of course it depends on what you're into, but compared to London, Zurich is very small, quiet, and homogenous. It does have a lot to offer, especially if you're not a "big city" person. It just depends what you like.

Friends of ours lived in Switzerland for several years, but moved to the States as they felt that women (and they had several daughters) were 'second class citizens'. Might have changed recently?

It's v expensive and quite parochial. Reminds me of the UK in the 1970s - shops shutting by 6pm (apart from the Co-Op which was open later) and no Sunday opening. If you want to shop on Sunday, go to the airport or main train station.

Clean and chocolate box pretty. Courteous, English widely spoken - not diverse and sometimes with an underlying thread of racism.

It's not for me.

Thanks so much for the replies they've really helped. I love London. I love the buzz the fast pace even though sometimes it is a bit too fast!
The way women are treated in Switzerland is interesting, especially with a dd. I'm pretty strong on things like I should work and dd needs to see she can achieve the same as a man etc. (Even though if I'm honest in accountancy it's pretty hard to compete with men sometimes as a woman in uk)
All the points considered I'm not convinced Switzerland will be the place for me. There are a couple of other countries he could go to ie Germany but I've spent long enough there to realise it's not the place for me even though I love visiting. I will do my research but my main aim has never been comfy life with spare cash so it's not sounding too positive now. Better to know though!

I've been in Switzerland since 2011 working for an international firm, and I think it's great, actually!

I was in London before that and PP are right in terms of it being rather small in comparison. The big city feeling is the one thing (apart from friends and family) that I actually miss around here.

In all othet respects, it's a great place to live. The standard of living is a lot higher than in London, IMO, as is the quality of goods and services in many places. I'm in love with the Swiss habit of actually sitting outside in summer and the fact that going out around here doesn't mean thatvthe pub closes at 11.

The women thing is no longer accurate at all. Swiss women only got the right to vote on a national level in 1971 and were only afforded equality under the constitution in 1981, that's where a lot of these stories come from. Having said that, a few years back, Switzerland actually had a majority female government. Cat calling and street harrassment is just not a thing the way it is in London and all my male co-workers seem to take 2-3 mths paternity leave. In many respects, being in Switzerland whilst female actually beats being in the UK.

The Swiss are quite reserved and don't really make friends all that easily. My social circle here consists mainly of co-workers (but part of the reason for this is that I don't enjoy expat groups). There are also some quite ridiculous rules that people seem tonabide by, such as most rentals stipulating no laundry on a Sunday, which is just plain stupid!

I disagree about Swiss schools not being academic. It's true that they don't seem to be from what I see and hear (no DC here), but I find that my Swiss co-workers tend to have a broader education than people in the UK very often. I suspect this is due to the Swiss educational system allowing far less choice than the British one (you can't get an A-level equivalent without both mathematics and at least one foreign language).

I don't actually live in Zurich anymore and would recommend you also look at Bern and Basel - both easy commutes by train. I moved to Bern a few years ago and feel a lot more at home here.

As for the foreigner thing: yes the Swisd have basically invented the UKIP brand of politics. But, just like in the UK, it's a controversial subject and you'll find plenty of people very accomodating and not pleased with this sort of thing at all. Like the UK, really. This is certainly true for the cities, which almost all lean left politically.

In terms of work, I suspect you'd have to have your qualification as an accountant certified. You need a paper for pretty much everything in Switzerland. Professional training seems to be taken very seriously here and there's a nationally recognised qualification for basically anything (apart from maybe cleaner and shelf-stacker).

HTH

I am in the Zurich area and really like it. I manage to work with my children in local school and if they attended an international school, it would be even easier.

Yes, Zurich is not a patch on London in some ways! It's much smaller, and does not have the same buzz or offer of cultural activities but it is great for families on a day to day basis. It offers a really great lifestyle in my opinion. There are reasons why it comes so high up in the polls for quality of life (google this?). Most of the people I know, say that they would never, ever return back to London after being here. It's safe, children have a lot of freedom, little ones walk alone to school, play in the forest, are allowed to take risks etc. There are lots of great outdoor activities on offer and it is a really beautiful country. Commutes are generally shorter, and generally the working day is shorter, even for professionals compared to their counterparts in London/elsewhere. As for the Sunday shops being closed, you get used to it and I even like it now.

There is a lot of choice qualification wise, Switzerland has many great apprentice programmes combined with qualifications as well as a more pure academic route. After a slow gentle start in school (children not learning to read and write until 7 years old) and playing in the forest then it really kicks in. The education is known to be good, foreigners are supported with their acquisition of German. The level for 15 year old children is quite high up in the PISA results, particularly for maths where it attains some of the best results in Europe.

It's true that the Swiss people are generally a little more reserved but, I have found, if one is open, attempts to learn the local language then there are many exceptions to this the rule.

Lots of women choose not to work, but that's also because they can mange well with one quite average salary. Some countryside areas are more old fashioned but most schools now have additional care before and after school and during lunchtime though there is an a charge for these. Stay at home parents are respected, which isn't always the case in some parts of Europe (e.g. Scandinavia).

Switzerland does seem eye-wateringly expensive but salaries are much higher and taxes lower. In addition, over time, it's possible to find ways to cut costs. We have found that it is indeed possible to live a very comfortable life, travel, ski and also save.

I think that there have been previous threads about Switzerland/Zurich. I would search them if I had a chance to live here.

I disagree that the issue about attitudes towards women is a thing of the past. Yes, women can vote now, but there's still deeply embedded sexism, from taxing the working woman at a higher rate (to discourage women from working) to there being long school lunch hours and no school on Wednesday afternoons and expecting the mother to be home to pick the kids up, to casual everyday sexism like my German teacher commenting that he was sure I already knew the kitchen-related vocabulary.

Yes, it's a bit different in Zurich because there are more expats, etc., but it's still there. It's death by a thousand cuts there. It's not in your face all the time but then you go spend time somewhere like England or North America and realize how different it is to be a woman in one of those places than in Switzerland.

For day to day lifestyle, CH really does have a lot to offer, especially for families, but it's also an oppressively normative lifestyle in my experience.

Thanks. Dh is there now. I think next time he goes I will have to follow him and make my mind up. I have only been on holiday there and that was years ago.
I like working. Really like working. We manage on dh salary now but I wouldn't want to at least not have the choice to work at some point. I don't want to be a sahm (not judging anyone that does, it's just not for me I find myself bored very quickly)
Dh has said we should get school fees paid for so that would be good as currently paying them ourselves. From reading everything here and elsewhere I'm not convinced it will work for us. Another option is to move there for a couple of years and come back to London. Not sure I'd enjoy it though, even for a short length of time. I also don't like skiing so that might be an issue (have been to ski resorts but no desire to actually ski!) wouldn't mind dd learning though. Thanks for the help it's really appreciated.

Oh quick update, have just spoken to dh and looks like we may all be going out there next week for a trip. He is staying in a small town outside of Zurich so will be good to see how it is even if it's not for long.

If you are in the Horgen/Thalwil/Adliswil area go to Park im Gruene where there is a great playground (H&S standards rather differ!) and paddling pool. Very popular with expats and locals and has a great view across the lake towards the Alps. It is owned by Migros supermarket chain who also have a restaurant on site. However bear in mind that a hot summer day will differ greatly to the chilly fog of November.

Thanks lizs I am under no illusion re the weather. When I visited Switzerland last it was December and freezing.
I also kind of feel it won't be the place for us but as dh company are letting us all go out there I may as well go. Trying to remain neutral and see how we get on. I'll get the train into Zurich as well. Would love to live abroad with dd but I need to make sure it's going to be a better option than in the uk for us.

But then you go spend time somewhere like England or North America and realize how different it is to be a woman in one of those places than in Switzerland

Nope, sorry! Having lived here for the past 6 years, I've now got a decently long list of annoyances about Switzerland. But rampant sexism isn't one of them - the data just really doesn't reflect this:

Gender pay gap: Switzerland just about misses the top 10 and is a good deal ahead of the UK. North America includes Canada on position 35, the US on a shameful 45 and Mexico on 66: reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2016/rankings/

The UN's gender inequality index: Switzerland ranks 1st for gender equality 2015, with Canada on rank 18, the UK on 28, the US on 43 and Mexico on 73: hdr.undp.org/en/composite/GII

Violence against women: Switzerland again compares positively against both the US and the UK: unstats.un.org/unsd/gender/chapter6/chapter6.html (dataset available via download)

The claim that this place is a misogynistic hell is just very simply not supported by the available data. Statistically speaking, you're way better of being female around these parts.

Take a look at this!

It's 26 degrees today and people are swimming right in the city. It's a very cool city in the summer, lovely lakeside eateries and cafes. All along the lake, people are relaxing and swimming. Out of the city there is grass, shaded area, playgrounds for kids. It really is lovely.

Your husband will be seeing this kind of thing today!

And our summer lasts MONTHS - we've had about 4 months of lovely sunshine (and the odd storm at night. I love this city!

I also lived in CH for a long time and I'm speaking from experience regarding sexism. While the statistics are interesting, they don't necessarily reflect all of lived experience and on the whole, I was treated less equally as a woman there than in other places that I've lived. I'm data-minded and I'm not denying those stats, but they never tell the whole story either.