Language choices in quatrième.

[pinkhousesarebest]

Just wondering if someone could help me out as I am a bit conflicted. Ds chose German in 6ème and is happy with his choice. He now wants to take Spanish next year and not English. We speak English at home and he is a bookworm and his written skills are solid, so I would be happy to see him gainfully employed as it were. But strategically I also see the benefits that doing English would bring, when things get tougher later on. Would he be able to play the English card ever or is this it? Any advice gratefully accepted as we have to decide this weekend.

It's difficult! I can't really help as although we are just about at the same stage (DD1 in 4eme, DD2in 5eme), and a similar situation (only English at home, bookworms, good English writing capabilities) they had to do English in 6eme at college. The second language choice was in 5eme for German, or alternatively in 4eme for Spanish.

But the workload in 4eme is extremely heavy - DD1 also has Latin and European options and has a full timetable from 8.30 til 17.00 every day except Wednesday, and she also does quite a lot of sport outside of school so I'm glad that she has English as an easy subject that gives her great marks without really any work. Her teachers have also been very encouraging, and whilst the conversation part of the lessons is extremely easy for her, they have pushed her far beyond her class mates in written exercises, particularly in anything creative, which is great.

So whilst I'm not sure how helpful our experience is to your situation, maybe it might be that the English lessons are not necessarily a total waste of time for your son if he choses that route! Good luck.

Thank you. It's such a dilemma isn't it?

Frozen, was it a big jump from 5eme to 4eme? Everyone keeps saying how tough college is but DC in 5eme doesn't seem to have much more work to do at home than in CM2. Will be doing section européenne with English and German. No Latin.
Pink, English obligatory in our college for all 4 years so I haven't thought about what you propose. However Spanish is very easy to learn IMO. Would it be an option to take it up later?

Somme - I do think it is quite a big jump from 5eme to 4eme - especially if you want to have a life outside of college and homework. DD1 gets back each night at 1730, and has a sport commitment between 1800-2030 twice a week, plus Saturdays so really has to plan ahead in terms of homework otherwise sometimes she just does not have time to do all the work asked. I've just counted her subjects and there are 13, (French, Maths, Spanish, English, European, Hist/Geo, Chem/Physics, SVT, Technology, Latin, Art, Music and PE) so there's homework in all those, except the last 3, at least every week and often more than once a week.

For what it is worth, I'm spending a lot of my time at work interviewing school leavers for internships and jobs at the moment and if a native English speaker took English as one of their foreign language options, I'd assume that they were doing it as a way of slacking off. Probably harsh, I know that not everyone is good at languages, but that's how it would seem to me as a potential employer.

That being said, my child isn't even born yet and I'm already having nightmares where I argue with his English teacher about the quality of teaching. I have been ever since I agreed to help my neighbour's 10 year-old daughter with her English homework and saw that the materials she had been given were riddled with mistakes...

Seems a shame to take a subject because you know it already. Isn't school supposed to be about learning things, not just getting certificates?

pinkhousesarebest - the law is very clear: French bac candidates may take any bac and any options they wish! Even if they haven't followed the course.

So you DS may take LV1 German and LV2 Spanish at school and still choose to do LV1 English in his bac. Just make sure his school knows that this is allowed (they may not prevent it) when the time comes.

if a native English speaker took English as one of their foreign language options, I'd assume that they were doing it as a way of slacking off

This is a really unfair attitude! All DC require schooling in their mother tongue and if the only way they can achieve it is through foreign language classes at school, so be it.

Bonsoir to be fair, in my post I did say that it was probably a harsh opinion but it really is how I would see it. If I were to meet two EMT candidates, one of whom had taken English at school and one who had taken the opportunity to learn an additional foreign language, I would be much more receptive to the second candidate. You are most probably right, it probably is unfair but so are many things in life and with 250 candidates for 100 positions available, I have to make a judgement based on something.

I should probably point out that when I say I'm interviewing 'school leavers', I mean école d'ingénieur with a bac +5 minimum so we have pretty high expectations, especially in terms of motivation/ability to learn new things and adapt as at this stage in their career it would be reallyunfair to attempt to judge them on professional experience or skills.

I completely disagree with Bonsoir. Taking your own native or near-native language that you speak and read fluently and write competently at school as a "foreign language" is lazy / a way of getting a qualification with the least possible time and effort. It's quite commonly done in the UK - eg pupils from China getting A*s in GCSE Chinese, which is very much designed for beginners in Chinese. It makes a mockery of the exam system, and reduces that child's opportunity to take a subject that they can't do already - eg Spanish (a very useful foreign language that could serve them well in later life, and will improve their facility to learn other foreign languages).

You also need to remember that not taking English LV1 is often impossible!

You really should remove your prejudice filter!

Whereupon - you are describing a different situation to the one we are discussing.

I still disagree though! Prejudice against bilinguals is rife.

Bonsoir - why do you think it is a good idea for a Chinese national going to school in the UK (very common scenario, usually private boarding school) to take GCSE Chinese, which is designed for English speakers who have never learned one word of Chinese before? Just interested.

Because that Chinese child is already at a huge disadvantage versus the native English child because learning through the medium of a second language. Give him/her a break and let him/her get a good qualification in a skill he/she needs to demonstrate anyway.

Bonsoir, I really don't want to get into an argument here (so far I've managed to avoid that on MN, an exploit I'm really quite proud of) but I would point out that obviously if English was an obligatory class, I wouldn't have a problem with it. In the OP's case, her child has the opportunity to choose so I shared my evidently horribly biased professional opinion on that situation.

How do you know whether or not a DC was in a position to choose LV1 German or Spanish in preference to English, though?

FWIW, the official recommendations are that DC should take either LV1 English or LV2 English at school in France - to opt out of both is unusual and increasingly difficult.

I do get very cross at accusations of laziness leveled at bilinguals from monolinguals, btw!

Demonstrating that you know 150 words in Chinese is not a good qualification for a 16 year old who has been speaking the language since they were 1, and writing it since they were 4 or so. It is lazy and cynical certificate collecting, probably encouraged by the school to up their grades.
If you have a choice between taking a basic exam in something you are extremely good at already, or taking a basic exam in something you haven't studied yet, doing the latter is more honest (you're not implying that you've achieved something worthwhile when you haven't) and will actually teach you something and develop your learning skills.

You are cruel and prejudiced, Whereupon.

NB I lived abroad between the ages of 7 and 10, and when I took A'level in that foreign language at 18 I was far from bilingual but it was still a huge advantage.

And you would deny others the advantage from which you yourself benefited? Worse still.

I am certainly not cruel, nor prejudiced as far as I can see. Please explain. I am a linguist myself - have studied lots of languages, including to degree level.

When DC are in any school system, they should be allowed whatever skills they have to maximise their own advantage within it. They shouldn't be required to (self) censor some of their skills because they have some kind of inbuilt advantage.

Should DC who have had private music lessons from birth be prevented from doing Music GCSE? Or the children of vicars be prevented from doing RE GCSE?

I took a qualification at 18, having not lived abroad since I was 10, at which time I was reading Enid Blyton and had only basic writing skills. So A'level was worthwhile, though I did have an advantage, yes. I studied a different language at degree level.
If you want your child to get a qualification because it is very easy for them, go ahead, but if they are missing something else that they could have studied instead, you are doing them a disservice. Education these days is too much to do with collecting exam certificates, and not enough about valuing learning things.

How do you know whether or not a DC was in a position to choose LV1 German or Spanish in preference to English, though?

By asking them in the interview. In the same way that I would ask a candidate why they chose to do a licence + master instead of a prépa + école d'ingénieur (both valid routes to a comparable level of qualification but the answer often highlights a difference in attitudes). Since the candidates I meet have little to no relevant professional experience, discussing choices made during their education and extracurricular activities is one of the only means at my disposal to evaluate the person's potential and motivation.