Amsterdam Zuid vs Hilversum? Kiwi family moving to NED

[DutchKiwiGirl]

HI everyone. First time poster here. Seeking some advice / recommendations and it's a topic that has been regularly discussed on Mumsnet - I know this because I have been reading up on this through Mumsnet for a few months now and it's been very helpful. My situation.......

We are relocating from New Zealand to Amsterdam in April/May 2015 due to my husband's promotion into a global IT role. He starts 1 April 2015. I will follow early May with our two daughters. We are currently reviewing two international school locations for our 12 & 9 year old daughters. We are thinking that they will spend one year in an international school while they pick up some dutch and then maybe transfer to a dutch school in their second year in NED.

AICS in Amsterdam Zuid and International College Hilversum. Both schools seem good but there is a waitlist at AICS for sure. My girls were more impressed by the Hilversum website & the look of the place and everyone we speak to has only good things to say about Intl School Hilversum. MY girls aren't so sure about the 'city' school of AICS. Which is where we are a bit conflicted. We live in the suburbs of Auckland, which is NZ"s largest city. We are city people but are very happy living a family lifestyle in the suburbs. My husband and I are excited about living close to the city and A/dam Zuid - Amstelveen seem to fit the bill for us, allowing my husband to commute easily to his job in the museum quarter & close enough for the girls to get to their school while we all enjoy the A/dam vibe and lifestyle on the weekends. However, Hilversum seems more family friendly and a safer place for kids to ride around/meet friends/hang out than we would enjoy in A/dam Zuid or maybe even Amstelveen. But it's a town, not a city. Will we find it too small? Or will the hustle & bustle of Amsterdam be even worse than a small town?

Making assumptions & decisions from afar is a bit tricky. We are also mindful of how my husband will cope with the commute in the long winter months - by bike and by train - and often in the dark. We don't live with snow & ice here in NZ so it will be a challenge for him. Right out of his comfort zone! Do we sound a bit wussy?? Ha ha.

Likely we will have a short-term rental A/dam while we look at houses & confirm spots in the schools. However, is anyone able to share their experience in this area? Is there any one with experience of those schools & maybe also those areas in which to live? Any feedback is much appreciated!

Amstelveen / oud Zuid woukd be great.
Very safe, lots of expat families. 10/15mn through bethoven straat to museumplein. Very easy safe commute on public transport too.
For me in a heartbeat!
Have not lived in Hilversum but something similar mear Den Haag. Depressing if you like city life.
amsterdam is vibrant and multiculyural but has a nice slow pace compared to london paris or brussels.

AICS is not a good school (understatement). If you want to send them to a Dutch school in the medium term anyhow I would look at Europa in Amsterdam Zuid, as it has a high proportion of foreign parents and is used to absorbing children who don't speak Dutch. If you want a good international school, look at the British School or ISA in Amstelveen. Hilversum is OK rather than good in my opinion.

Oud Zuid is more expensive but much nicer than Amstelveen. It is a very nice place to live with family and children do play together in parks and playgrounds. Oud Zuid does not have a big city vibe - it's quite different to the area within the canals.

There is very little snow or ice in Amsterdam but it is true that the public transport system doesn't cope well when there is - the metro breaks down, particularly the line running into Amstelveen. Commuting from Amstelveen, Hilversum or even further afield is common so definitely doable.

BTW you are unlikely to get a house in Amsterdam Zuid as pretty much none exist. For a 150 m^2 unfurnished apartment you are looking at around 3k per month. Amstelveen is cheaper and there are houses there, and Hilversum is cheaper again.

Thanks for your feedback - it's much appreciated. Amsterdam Zuid WTC area is probably our ideal location but we'll have to see what is available. AICS has many mixed reviews - I have read some very unhappy ones. This makes me feel concerned. Maybe Europa School would be a better option and I will definitely check this out. Thank you. Your feedback is really helpful.

I admire your courage but I would imagine moving the girls from an international school to a local dutch one at the ages they will be would be extremely difficult. Dutch is quite a hard language to pick up.

Also the Dutch school system separates children at quite an early age (think 11) into a secondary education that will either lead to university or not. WBO or VBO something like that.

I can recommend the British School of Amsterdam, we had 5 years there, and also living in Amsterdam Zuid. It is very nice.

As for commuting, if you do live out of town and need to take a train in, most commuters have a bike both sides of the train commute.

The 12 year old would be sent to a bridge class to learn Dutch, before going into a regular school. As the previous poster wrote, there is streaming at 11 so she would be streamed into one of the three types of schools, only one of which is university track. There are bilingual (university track VWO) streams such as the one at Barlaeus Gymnasium but I believe they are quite over-subscribed. Dutch secondary schools are often better in the Leiden/Den Haag region and many people live there and commute to Amsterdam accordingly.

I think the Dutch education system would be quite a culture shock after NZ. Levels in both the international and Dutch schools at primary school are not very high and there isn't much differentiation. (The British schools in Amsterdam and Den Haag are a bit more academic.) Even in the high profile gymnasia (university track grammar schools) at 11+ the standards often aren't particularly high, since universities in Holland are not allowed to select on school grades - i.e. a student with a high school diploma from a grammar school is allowed to enrol at any university (except for subjects such as medicine which have special rules).

Like the previous poster I would be pretty cautious about moving into the Dutch education system at 9 and 12 but the good international schools are the private ones, which are obviously quite expensive. The subsidised state international schools such as AICS or Hilversum might be acceptable for younger primary children (for just a few years) but their IB results at secondary level are not strong. I know dozens of families who withdrew their children from both schools, particularly AICS, because of concerns about low standards, high turnover of staff, poor organization, bullying not dealt with etc.

Just looking at the populations for the various locations you're considering, I'd say if you want that big city vibe you'll have to move to Amsterdam. Auckland has about 1.4m people. Amsterdam, by comparison, has about 800k. The Hague (Den Haag) has 500k, and Hilversum has about 85k. I remember visiting Hilversum with a Dutch friend (her sister lived there), and I thought it was a sleepy little place, certainly not the kind of place you'd want to live if you like the big city experience.

We moved to Amsterdam Zuid when my eldest was 9. I wouldn't hesitate to enrol a 9 year old in a Dutch school if you are pretty confident of their social and academic abilities. 3 years later, they will be assessed by standardised tests for high-school which is as stated above, streamed into different levels, the highest being VWO level. With this VWO advies, kids can access an athenaeum or gymnasium education. I must disagree with the poster above who believes gymnasium education to be of a less than high education. I have friends whose children are native English speaking kids and attend gymnasia and are much more than happy with the practically free education.

The reason why kids with a VWO high-school diploma are admitted to University in the Netherlands is because achieving that diploma is no mean feat. And university in the NL is not the same as unis elsewhere. They are research universities here and quite specialized. 15% of the Dutch population have a VWO high school diploma. So it is indeed not so easy to get into a pre-university high school track. Most high school students take a lower level secondary education ( HAVO or VMBO ) some of which will allow you to reach university via a longer time frame. Of course, university is not the be all and end all so there are other options, including technical universities ( HBO ). All 5 gymnasia in Amsterdam offer Latin, Greek, German, French, Dutch and other subjects plus offer a Fast Track English program accredited by Cambridge, England thereby ensuring their graduates can apply to British/American/Irish Universities. It is a rigorous, academic education with gymnasia offering their own specialities also and yearly school tours abroad to Rome, London, Paris etc for very little extra money. My son has received a
VWO advies and will be attending a Gymnasium in August and we couldn't be happier because it suits his abilities and interests. He is completely bilingual now with Dutch and international friends and Amsterdam is a wonderful place to live for families.

There are also a few new public ( free ) bilingual schools that have recently opened in Amsterdam Zuid and another about to open in Amstelveen. I have friends with kids at both and they are very happy. Join Amsterdam Mamas Facebook forum and there are lots of parents there who can offer local advice. There is a brilliant sub-group called Dutch Education Group with international parents whose kids attend Dutch school and also parents who have happily moved their kids from international school to Dutch school and we all help each other along with the process. So, for my money-enrol the 9 year old in a good Dutch school. ( Immersion school first at Batavia in East Amsterdam ) . The 12 year old is more problematic because he/she won't be admitted to a Dutch high school without knowing Dutch. So, the bilingual school I mentioned is a good option because it has a middle school till age 14. Then a transfer is possible to Berlage Lyceum's bilingual program. Join the Dutch Education Group for more info! I replied briefly to your PM also.

To add: NL is 10th in the PiSA rankings form Literacy, Maths and Science. way above NZ at no. 23 and also far above the Uk so you have no worries there :)

*for

The reason why kids with a VWO high-school diploma are admitted to University in the Netherlands is because achieving that diploma is no mean feat.

Yes, the VWO is not obtainable by all children but the passing scores are not that high, relative to the grades required by selective UK/US universities. All students with 6/10+ at VWO, passing grades, can enter university but 6/10 would equate to C at UK A level. In a typical university first year class the average VWO grades are quite low and the level is not comparable to that of e.g. traditional UK universities requiring mostly As at A level (not Cs) to enter. Note that the top ten or so UK universities ask for very high VWO grades from Dutch students who apply - offers of 9 and often 9.5 are not uncommon from Oxbridge etc - and very few students achieve this, fewer than the percentage getting equivalent grades in the UK. Many of my academic colleagues in Holland actually sent their children to private international schools or a handful of select gymnasia where students achievement was higher. If you don't believe me, that's fine, people can have different views. (We left the country precisely because we couldn't find suitable options for our high achieving DC at secondary level.)

One can have very long discussions about the interpretation of PISA scores - for example, the fact that the US scores quite low down (because of large differences in schools, a rich/poor divide) doesn't mean that the highest achievers in the US aren't very high achieving. But if those scores make you think the education in NL is terrific, again, fine, that's up to you.

Hi op - just tagging along as I've just applied for a job in Hilversum. DC would be 3.5 and 1 if/when we move so we'd be looking at (probably international) schools for them. We're not too sure if Hilversum will be too small for us and whether we'd prefer to be in Amsterdam or Utrecht instead. The commute from Utrecht looks better than from Amsterdam but if we did look at Amsterdam I suspect it would be south-ish of the city (not too familiar with the area names yet).

Good luck with your move in April!

I am talking precisely about children attending gymnasia then being eligible to apply to UK or other Universities abroad. There are only 5 gymnasia in Amsterdam and having a VWO diploma from one of these excellent schools gives a myriad of choices. I have British friends with teens at two of these schools and they are big fans, not least because their kids are getting a classical, rigorous grammar school education with a wonderful selection of subject profiles for free. You don't have to believe it and that's fine :)

The PISA scores tell me that the NL offers a very good, broad, free education to all children. Why do you think I am querying high achievers in other countries? Of course they are high achievers. No argument there.

The other salient point is that the Dutch grading system is different to the UK /US system. Dutch high schools rarely give a 9 or 10-that is the pinnacle of excellence so reserved for superb work. They give a point off for a wrong answer on a 10 point grading system. So if you get 6 wrong out of 30 for example, you get a 4 mark. It's hard to compare it to UK/US grading and I don't have the time to get into it in more detail.

From what I have heard from others with kids actually AT a Gymnasium here, I have absolutely no worries about my son being accepted in the future to UK/US universities if he is so inclined.

This is possibly neither here nor there for the op but wanted to give another viewpoint so as not to scare her off Dutch high schools.

PS. The 12 year old could attend the bridging class at Berlage Lyceum as mentioned above. I know an American who enrolled her 13 year son there, he did an intensive dutch class during the summer and is now two years in and doing great in the bilingual stream.

uilen it is Berlage not Berlaeus that does TTO (Twee Talige Opleiding = bilingual education).

Berlaeus is the one opposite Paradiso that has the reputation of the city's elite's kids going to.

Also, AICS is an offshoot of Berlage.

My son went to Berlage TTO and I took him out because the TTO is only the first 3 years. They still have to legally do the Dutch exams (VWO, Havo, VMBO). They can do an IB certificate in English Language and Literature at VWO level and other equivalents - IELTS (International English Language Testing System). That's all (just checked the website).

One of the reasons I took him out though it is a good school it is just too massive and he was not living up to his potential there.

They do have "schakelklassen" for kids who don't speak Dutch (173 nationalities living here) so that may be a factor to send your oldest there. And it's in Oud Zuid. (if you chose to live there).

Another factor for choosing it is she will learn the language and make local friends.

There are more TTO schools in Amsterdam tho now, maybe google?

If you google iamsterdam.com click on English and then on local you can see an education overview (sorry, can't link) with links to schools etc.

One great thing about the university system here there are now several University Colleges doing BAs in English. My son is at one of them.

Oh, and I would die of boredom living in Hilversum

off to name change

Just googled the TTO schools in Amsterdam:

Amsterdam: Berlage Lyceum – Hervormd Lyceum West – ROC Amsterdam, locatie Hubertus – SG Reigersbos – Sint-Nicolaaslyceum.

There's none in Hilversum... Strange, considering it's the centre of medialand there....

I lived in Hilversum for four years, there is probably a restaurant for every day of the year, certainly not sleepy. There are bars and night life a theatre, a film theatre, the media park, several music festivals in the town centre during the year. Lots of stuff going on because of the media centre. Sorry don't know much about International schools as my daughter goes to Dutch school, it is not too far from Amsterdam on the train. It is expensive which is why we moved. Also the main roads are also mainly one way which can be a pain. There is a fantastic library especially for small children, we used to spend hours in there.

Great information & feedback. It's so very much appreciated. I'm checking out all the schools mentioned in the comments above and will apply to a few of the TTO schools from here with the expectation that we will need to conduct a round of interviews when we arrive. Looks like there are a few more options for us to consider regarding our daughters' schooling in Amsterdam. And thanks irishmumonthemove for comments on living locations - all really helpful.

Of the above schools, St. Nicolaas Lyceum is located in Amsterdam Zuid. There is one high school in Amstelveen that offers a bilingual education- Hermann Wesselink College ( very good reputation ). I am unsure though if any/all of these schools will take a child with zero Dutch language skills. If they say no, there is also a good option to take a sort of bridging class. Kids who are not fully fluent ( often newly arrived kids ) and who have finished primary school ( basisschool ) can attend a kopklaas in Amsterdam. After a year of kopklaas, their Dutch is fluent and exams are easier. Then they apply for their high school of choice. There is a kopklaas in Amsterdam Zuid- in Buitenverldert specifically. Check it out- it could be the wisest way to go for your 12 year old. www.kopklaasamsterdam.nl

Sorry, spelt wrong. It's wwww.kopklasamsterdam.nl And its free!

Thanks for the info on hilversum... It seems to be a bit marmite (love it or hate it). If we didn't have kids,
Amsterdam would be the obvious choice.......

HI everyone. Updating you on our situation which is a little more complicated as we have older children rather than pre-schoolers, and our 12 year old is a high schooler - and we only speak english. So learning dutch is a key issue for us. As a result I have been recommended to speak with an Amsterdam based consultant who specialises in placing foreign children into schools and she is excellent. A real 'port in a storm'! We are very hopeful of a good outcome & will know more in few weeks. A few things I have discovered:

There are many wonderful bi-lingual schools (TTO) in Amsterdam but they are only for dutch students who wish to learn english. So, most of those lovely high schools whose websites I have visited are not for foreign children who need to learn dutch - only for local dutch speakers.

VVTO schools offer dutch immersion classes to non-dutch speaking students as an extra service which is part of the primary school curriculum but they seem to be at primary school level only.

KopKlas is not for dutch language tuition of english speaking children. It is only for middle school age children & older who have good skills in maths etc. but who need to do remedial work on their dutch language skills.

There are very few schools in Amsterdam which accommodate english speaking children at middle school / high school level - you can literally count them on one hand - maybe a few fingers even. Excepting international schools of course!

Always arrange schooling & confirm places for your children BEFORE you rent accommodation.

We are now in the process of applying to a school in Amsterdam for both of my daughters and we are hopeful of hearing a result in the next few weeks. Plan A is to still to live and work & attend school in the Amsterdam area. However, Plan B is International School Hilversum & living in 'het gooi. I have heard lots of good things about Hilversum from some unlikely sources and they all speak highly of it as a great family-focused town & a good school. Can't beat that! So, it sounds like a very good option for us if plan A doesn't pan out due to schooling issues. Fingers crossed!