Melbourne or Sydney?

[balex]

We might get an offer to relocate (still 50/50 stage) to Melbourne or Sydney (our choice) but I need to have some plans ready if it's going to happen as we are talking about Jan/Feb. My main issue are schools. My DS just started yr7 (very good state secondary) and he will have to start yr7 again. I know all the school places are already allocated but if we move in a catchment area of a good government secondary school will they take him anyway? Any suggestion on areas to live in are welcome! I'm a city mouse, (we live in central London) so I need some shopping and cafes around . I'm not ready yet for the big outdoor adventure. We also need a good swimming club nearby, both DCs are swimming several times a week. DD will have to restart yr5 (not sure she will like it ) but I think we will find a place for her more easily at a local primary so my priority is a good secondary for DS. Transport is also important because I don't drive. From my understanding with a 457 we will have to pay for schools in Sydney but not in Melbourne? We have the catholic option too, they might be cheaper than paying for state in Sydney. Any good? DC prefers coed, DD prefers all girls (at a very academic prep at the moment).

Can you afford to pay for schools? If not then there is your answer

Personally I would try to figure out what I want in this relo - I've lived in both Melbourne and Sydney and they have completely different vibes to them. Melbourne feels very European, has distinct seasons whereas Sydney is warmer mostly all year and has a very LA (in my opion ) feel where everyone seems to be either exercising or just looking plain gorgeous!

Regarding schooling it is very different in Sydney and Melbourne also. When I lived in Sydney I couldn't believe the pressure my colleagues were under to find good schools (a bit like London) whereas I grew up in Melbourne and this was never an issue.

Hi! I'm in Sydney.
Finding a good school and getting in is generally only an issue with private schools (and it's not really an issue - they just like to make people feel like it is so they can charge huge registration fees). Most public schools will take students on a 457 visas as far as I know. Don't know of any all-girls public primary schools but there are a plethora of wonderful public and Catholic primaries around (and plenty of single-sex Catholic Primaries).
Round the Bondi area, where I am, there are a number of excellent public primaries as well as a good all-boys Catholic high school (Waverley College) and a number of good Catholic Primaries (St Claires).

The Inner west is probably another area worth looking at where you might find the right school combination for you - plus it's another buzzy, metropolitan area.

Do you know where in Sydney your office would be? Any idea what sort of salary they'd be paying you in Aus$?

Sydney, it's wonderful though i agree that everyone except me looks gorgeous. However, I know some boys schools are over subscribed (Shore).

In Melbourne, the state primary school you're in the zone for has to take you in. Bayside suburbs on the east side have the kind of shopping/cafe life you describe, but all are pricey.

As for schools, unless the rules have changed, on a 457 you don't pay fees at a state school, though all equipment, books, etc. are not supplied to any student.

Not to be rude, but not driving in Australia and relying on public transport to get you around will not work. When a Melburnian says the chemist is about 10 minutes away, they mean by car, and driving at the top end of the speed limit in residential areas, e.g.50-60kph. Sydney would be the same, but with more congested roads.

Melbourne is lovely.

Yeah - you really might want to learn to drive before coming to Australia.
There are some areas where you could get around OK without a car, but you'd be stuck in those areas. Your kids will be invited to people's homes which won't have transport links, they will have to get to sports fields etc which may have poor transport links, you'll want to go to see some sights ets and it is VERY limiting if you can't drive.

Fox, if the OP is weighing up Catholic vs public fees then she's probably not going to be in the market for Shore?

You're right surfsup1

Thank you all!!!
Ok I put the driving licence on my to do list !
In terms of budget we have still no idea, DH's position is under discussion but it seems that it could be between 150k-200k +benefit. I'm seriously starting to worry that this is not going to be enough . We've been in Sydney many years ago on honeymoon and decided that one day we would go back to live there. Then the kids came, then we moved to London (we are from Italy) but we never stopped to dream about it.

balex there's another recent thread on here with a heap of info about a family considering a move to Sydney on a not-dissimilar salary.
Really worth a read.

You're looking at something like double the average income there, so it's certainly very doable, it just depends what sort of lifestyle you expect and are used to in your current location.

Have a look at Balmain and Roselle - might be up your alley.

I'm in Sydney too. You might like Bondi Junction, especially if you can't drive and like shopping and cafes, although Balmain/inner west are good too as already suggested.

The buses are pretty good in the Eastern suburbs though, although it can be tough getting on the buses coming into the junction from Bondi Beach in rush hour. Coogee Public and Double Bay public are very good state primaries I hear but co-ed. Private all-girls schools which cover Y5 include Ascham, SCEGGS, St Catherine's, Kambala. I see international families moving in and out of them quite frequently, so you might not struggle to get a place.

A friend has her DD at St Andrews, which is a Co-Ed school in the CBD, very easily reached by tube from Bondi Junction, which they like very much.

In Sydney you will have to pay $5K I think for a public school per child. There is some VERY small print around the 457 visas which means that with a sympathetic employer you might be able to claim back the costs of child education - which means you might be able to claim this back (or the costs of a private education).

I'm sure there are many more, but I know of swim squad training at a lot of schools and the pools in the CBD and at UNSW - they do a very good squad training program for children.

I would also second learning to drive before you get here - Saturday sport can take you all over the place. I have to drive for nearly an hour to get to water polo matches and its similar story for rowing/rugby/hockey etc.

What benefits are you negotiating? Being here on a 457 is expensive. I think there is some mis-understanding sometimes about requiring private health care - I think the DIAC insist you prove that you have it in order to issue the visa but then when you're here you can get reciprocal health care and a medicare card. If you don't have private cover though you get hammered for tax, so it's a bit of a no-win.

Running a car here on a 457 is $$ as you won't be able to access reasonable car finance. Look into salary sacrificing/leasing via your employer, it's a bit more tax efficient (unless you can get a company car thrown in) but still $$. You can also hire cars for short trips using go-get, which might suit you if your husband can easily commute.

I grew up in inner city Melbourne, and went to school in the eastern suburbs. (Still in my 20s, so I doubt its changed much.) We lived in an area where driving was actually inconvenient, so my parents sold our car when I was a teenager. You can manage without a car as long as you don't have your heart set on a huge house with a good backyard. It will restrict you to more expensive areas though (over $600/week rent).

As PP have said, if you move into the zone for a good school in Melbourne they have to accept you, but again, those areas can be quite expensive for that reason.

Inner Melbourne is lovely though. Full of laneways and trees and small boutiques and tiny little hipster cafes.

Ooh and another benefit of Bondi Junction is that you would be close to Icebergs. Check this out for an amazing place to join a swim squad!!

icebergs.com.au/partners/icecubes/

Yes, Icebergs is a fabulous idea!

The Bondi Junction end of Woollahra would be very nice too - easy to walk to the station but with the cafe lifestyle of Woollahra.

It would depend on how much you are prepared to spend on housing though, the Eastern suburbs are pricey, Woollahra and Double Pay Bay particularly so.

if you go to melbourne i'd live in st kilda/middle park - it is pricey there but great transport links (tram or light rail) to the city, MSAC (acquatic centre) within easy reach at albert park, great cafes and restaurants, a couple of good schools and you're close to the beach and parkland

i'd also learn to drive when you arrive in aus - the test is much easier (and you can automatically convert back to a uk licence when you return). agree you eventually will want a car of your own.

i found sydney a little vacuous and superficial when i lived there and preferred melbourne - but it's a matter of taste

In NSW don't you have to do 200 hours of supervised driving or something before you can get your licence? I always think it's a bit unfair as I just waltzed in with my UK licence and got a NSW one. Although I do think they should at least give you a pamphlet explaining all of the million ways that they can and will fine you .

I was about to post and say exactly the same as Angeltulips - Melbourne definitely, and somewhere like south Melb, Albert park, middle park, port melbourne or at Kilda would be great. Schools, swimming, life without a car, quick tram ride into town, the south Melb market - sounds perfect for you.

proud Melburnian

Melbourne people really do LOVE Melbourne, but it's not for everyone. I have friends whole I've there and love it, but I don't really get it. I don't dislike it or anything, but it aways seems a bit dull and suburban to me Please don't flame me Melbournians!! It's nice and everything but I don't think it's any kind of hands-down obvious choice or anything.

I don't find Sydney vacuous or superficial though - maybe a bit more so when I was young and hanging out in fancy bars etc but IRL with kids I love Sydney's mix of big-city buzz and tropical beachy chill.

OP, you say you loved Sydney, did you go to Melbourne? Tell us your favourite part of London and then we might be able to better match you to Sydney or Melbourne!

There are definitely parts of both Sydney and Melbourne (and London for that matter) that are dull and suburban. They won't be right for you.

We live in Kensington and I just LOVE it. Family friendly, parks, shops, excellent transport and a nice community. DS has less than 10min walk to school and I have a 20-30 min commute to DD's school. I would also be happy with an area like Wimbledon or Richmond, just to give you an idea. I would rather stay in a smaller property in a vibrant area than have a big house somewhere more suburban.

Surfsup1 Icebergs looks amazing but I think the Cook and Phillip is more what I'm looking for and it doesn't look like a long commute from Bondi junction/Woollahra area .

schools we are not looking for private, I think they are definitely out of budget! Any good state secondary in the above area?

Melbourne unfortunately we didn't manage to include it in our tour at the time so I have no idea how it feels except that everybody says it's more european. I wish I could have a chance to visit before making a decision!
How are the seasons in Melbourne? What's the winter like? What are the actual working hours for professionals? In Italy DH didn't leave the office until 8-9pm, in London he can manage 6-7pm... he is at home in time to have dinner all together.

benefit we will have an insurance package which should include medical, life, etc. We should also get a company car. And they will obviously pay the relocation package (shipping, first weeks accommodation, relocation agent).

Arfishy Do you know where I can find the VERY small prints? It sounds interesting

In Bondi Junction your nearest State High School would be Rose Bay College. You might be able to get your son tested for Sydney Boys High which is a selective school - super academic. In fact I think Rose Bay might also have a selective stream which might be worth investigating if your DS is that way inclined?

If you love Kensington then I would maybe look at Paddington. Balmain might also suit you - not sure what the public high schools are that are around there, but I'm sure there would be a few.

Coogee/Randwick might also be worth a look - Randwick Boys High seems to get pretty good results.

If you end up East and prefer an indoor pool then apparently the swim squad at Cranbrook (school) is very good and is open to non-students. I always feel a bit dirty at indoor public pools like C&P - I guess it's just a matter of what you're used to though?

Re Melbourne, the climate really isn't that much different to Sydney despite the stereotypes. It probably gets a few more rainy days per year and it does get colder but it's not that big of a difference. Sydney gets a bit more humid, but then has the benefit of lovely coastal breezes (so long as you're not too far inland). Melbourne has a slightly drier heat, but the difference is slight IMO.

I would agree that Melbourne feels a bit more european, but we're not talking Paris or Rome, more Birmingham crossed with Milan maybe?

I reckon you'd probably find that you'd be happy in either Sydney or Melbourne so long as you find an area that really suits you. I know Sydney people who moved to Melbourne and loved it even though they didn't think they would and vice-versa. If you move to Melbourne you better start watching your AFL NOW!!! DH and I always feel like we're left out 80% of conversations down there because we have no idea what they're on about!!

Here you go Balex 457 School Fees It's not widely known, I had to take my accountant through the legislation line by line before he'd let me claim. Saved me $$$ though

I'm a former Richmond-ite, I think you'll very much like Woollahra, Paddington or Double Bay.

Having read your points OP I stand by suggesting the inner southern suburbs of Melbourne, especially the comment about living in a small property in a vibrant area. The northern suburbs are really lovely too, especially for families (such as North Carlton, North Fitzroy and Clifton Hill) but I know less about schooling there. There are plenty of public pools around which should have squads.

surf I am a born and bred Melburnian and I have never been to the AFL, nor managed to watch an entire game on TV! I am very bored by it but I manage to avoid it completely in conversations. We are in the wondrous part of the year where the footie is over, the weather improves, and it's nearly time for the Spring Racing Carnival and the onset of Christmas and summer. Love it! (Just spent 4 years in London so I am loving rediscovering Melbourne all over again.)

I also agree about the weather differences between Melbourne and Sydney being minor (though I really do notice and dislike the humidity in Sydney) and also that if you find the right part of town, either Sydney or Melbourne would suit you fine.

And the winter here is OK - relatively mild, not too rainy, still plenty of days with bright sunshine. The working life is hard to say - in London DH was in the office until 7-8pm most nights but his job here is quite a lot more relaxed, he can work from home and so he is at home around 6.30pm so he can see the toddler before bed.

I moved from the UK to melbourne a few years ago and so all of the advice below applies to melbourne.

Australians love private schools and private health so there are some very average gov secondary schools in wealthy areas (eg: hawthorn high) where all the middle class kids go private. Whereas the inner north (carlton, parkville, northcote, fitzroy) have great public high schools (princes hill, university high, fitzroy HS, northcote HS) and kids from affluent, educated, left wing families (maybe more like islington). I think the same applies to the suburbs in the inner south. There are also some excellent high schools out east but for different demographic reasons.

The better schools website and the myschool website will help you compare. If you like kensington, wimbledon and richmond suburbs like richmond, carlton, albert park, fairfield, south melbourne, elwood, northcote, fitzroy, parkville, camberwell, and williamstown might suit and they all have great public transport and decent or excellent high schools. I think you can find good gov primary schools in most suburbs. Usually, the best schools are tightly zoned and over full as they take everyone in their zone.

The good news is that there is a significant disparity between rents and mortgages so if you are planning to rent there will be few suburbs outside of your budget on that income. Buying would be different.

I think all the suburbs ive listed above have great high streets so you could walk to a chemist, train, butcher etc within 10 mins.

Melbourne does great high streets full of independent shops, cafes and boutiques with few chain shops. The down side is the supermarkets seem small and limited compared to the UK.

When i first came here eveyone kept telling me how 'european' melbourne was (it has a strong but cliched identity). And i kept thinking - which bit of europe? Have you ever been to europe? (They all have) but now ive been here a while and seen a bit more of the rest of australia, i kind of see what they mean.

Australians seem to view not having a licence as akin to choosing to have a disability. They just dont get it. I managed fine without one for a couple of years, living in an inner suburb, but it is definitely great to be able to drive. Its also much easier and cheaper to drive in melbourne than london.

Finally, the weather is different in syd and melb. Syd has a longer summer and swimming season and a milder, shorter winter. I think more rain actually falls in sydney but they have more tropical style downpours.

Australians love swimming so you will find swim squads everywhere. Your kids might like little nippers or surf life saving which might be better in syd?

Renting is more expensive in syd, but if you can afford to live somewhere you like, id go there if you know you love it and you can find a good school. Otherwise, melbourne is always winning 'the most livable city' competitions and deservedly so IMO.

I learnt to drive last year in Sydney. If you learn here and are over 25 the the process is:

Pass theory test ->

learners permit & learn to drive. No minimum hours of practice. When ready (it took me 6 weeks of intensive lessons) take practical test->

get P1 or "red Ps" which means you can't drive over 90km an hour, drive with ANY alcoholic your blood stream, drive a turbo petrol car. Any speeding tickets result in losing your license for 3 months. After 12 months take computerised hazard perception test->

Go on p2s or green ps. Same restrictions but you can go 100km an hour. After 2 yrs take another test (can't remember what the format is as I'm still on red ps). ->

Full license no restrictions.

The boring thing is no one will rent a car to you (even in the UK or New Zealand) until you have your full license (ie you have been driving 3 years.) Car insurance is expensive too if you are the main driver.

What you need to check though is if you have only just passed your license in the UK they may put you on a provisional license here. I just warning you as I was told by the WA licensing authority that they would - though each state has different licensing laws.

Having said ALL of this I managed a year in South sydney without a car and it was a pain the arse but doable. Busses are good here. Trains are excellent. I did all shopping online and had a regular essentials delivery through Aussie farmers direct.

Digger - are there restrictions about carrying passengers when you're on your Ps?

Only if you are under 25.