Moving to Riyadh

[ihearttc]

Has anyone got any experience of moving to Riyadh?

DH works in London and the Middle East( he travels for a week a month mainly to Saudi, Dubai and Jordan) but he has been offered an amazing opportunity to re locate to Saudi. It's not with his current company so wouldn't be able to come back to what he is doing now.
The package includes accommodation in secure compound, all medical and Educational stuff. We have 2 boys...one is nearly 10 and the other is nearly 4. My gut feeling is I don't want to go-I have elderly parents here and I don't want to leave them but in the other hand I can see what a fantastic opportunity this is for the boys.

Other option is he goes and we stay here.

I live in Qatar and have to say there is no way I would move to Saudi. The restrictions placed on women there would make it an absolute non starter for me (and that's coming from someone who lives in the ME) How much do you know about life in Riyadh?

Not a great deal I have to say. DH absolutely loves it though and seems to treat it like his second home. He has loads of friends out there already so it wouldn't be such an issue for him.
I know women can't drive over there and are basically treated like second class citizens, have to cover up in public but I wondered to a certain extent whether life on a compound would be manageable to get the sort of salary he has been offered.
He initially wanted a secondment to his firms office in Abu Dhabi which I would have seriously considered but I'm really not convinced on Saudi.

On the other hand I'm not money orientated at all but the salary he is being offered is 3 x his already generous uk salary together with all other benefits and it's that's that's swaying me... Just to give the boys opportunities when they are older.

I totally understand the appeal of the great salaries and tax free income the ME affords. To me though that is the only thing that makes life in Qatar bearable (although of course that is my opinion only). It's really true that there is more to life than money.

My "knowledge" of Saudi is pretty much anecdotal but my understanding is that women do not just have to cover up in public (and that means wearing the full abaya including headscarf) but that as a woman you are not permitted to be in public alone. If you can buddy up with other women on your compound that would be fine but that level of restriction of freedom to me would be unacceptable.

As an example, a female colleague of my husband was arrested last month in Saudi. Her crime - she was seen having a business meeting in a cafe with 2 men, neither of whom were her husband. All 3 were arrested and it took 24 hours for the firm to get them released.

You should seriously consider what you will do to keep yourself occupied all day, particularly during summers in the ME as you are pretty much stuck with the malls or staying inside! Of course in Saudi there will be no going out on your own.

Best advice I can give you is to put a time limit on how long you will stay in the ME and how much you will save whilst here. It takes a very particular type of person to "settle" in the ME.

Gosh, that was all v negative. Hoping a Riyadh dweller will be along soon to tell me I'm speaking nonsense and its a great place to live!

It's a shame the AD transfer didn't come up, I would have encouraged you to jump at that opportunity!

Thank you that's really helpful. Yes I know it would have been fantastic... We could have either lived in AD or Dubai where his other colleagues live and they drive in every day. We went to Dubai last year on holiday and I loved it so would have definitely gone for that

I'm rather feisty shall we say and I actually think for me being in Saudi is going to be particularly difficult... I don't like being told to not do stuff and obviously over there I will have to be.
I'm at a SAHM over here because due to DH's long commute every day plus working away and no family nearby make it difficult to find a job that fits in so I'm used to being home all day but will miss my friends so much.

I'm not completely against him going on his own...wouldn't be vastly different to the life we have with him cause he isn't home until 9 most nights anyway so have got used to doing stuff here on my own.

Please don't go. If (doom and gloom) your marriage should ever break down then your children would automatically belong to your dh under the law there. You would not have the same rights to residence and shared custody as you do in the UK. I used to work with womens aid and a particular charity that helped women return from the middle east with their children and honestly even with the most stable marriage in the world you could not pay me enough to move out there.

I know I will get flamed for saying that but in my own experience it is just the most misogynistic part of the world to be in. There is no way I would want to live there.

This is tricky. We came this close to moving to Dubai in the Spring...I did a LOT of research about the ME. Saudi would be a tough sell for me, I'm afraid. Considerably less liberal than Dubai, Oman, Qatar and AD. I'd be a jelly in the face of the Mutaween, I think.

That said, the compounds are supposed to be very nice and the schools excellent. Lots of culture and history if you're willing to seek it out. If the money was EXCELLENT (ie; mortgage-erasing) I might consider it as a temporary thing.

Some reading to help your decision:

In the Land of Invisible Women (Qanta Ahmed)

Girls of Riyadh (Rajaa Alsanea)

Princess (Jean Sasson)

I'm sure you know about Expat Woman? They have a Saudi site now and there are lots of blogs out there written by Western or non-Muslim women living in KSA.

I could never do it. Your husband would love it because he is male and the world is their oyster out there. But for a self described 'feisty' women? The first time you are berated for behaving in a particular manner or because your dress isn't totally 'circumspect......it's going to be a real sacrifice and your boys are going to see that. Takes a lot to manage the way in which they react to their mother suddenly retreating from public life unless she is covered up or escorted by a male relative. How do you think they might react to that- this would be something I'd have to consider.

The best of luck for your decision :)

I just escaped left this summer.
I only managed 5 years, and it felt like 50!
It's the small encroachments that got me in the end.
The ridiculousness of Saudi life, some examples, I had to pay a cheque into the bank. It was in my husbands name, it was his bank account, but I couldn't pay it in because I didn't have written permission from him.
Hailing a taxi on the street is now illegal - they view women out as prostitutes, a woman out alone is obviously looking for sex. I'm not exaggerating.
Shops you are used to everywhere else, like Ikea, will be sort if the same, but not really the same. Even the catalogue for Saudi is different - women are completely blotted out of the pics and the actual stock, well if the guy in charge doesn't like it - he may of liked it last week, but not this week, it won't be stocked. That's the same for every store. I went to buy printer paper at the store I always had, I couldn't find it.
Me: excuse me, but where is the printer paper?
Him: no ma'am, we no sell
Me: but... you used to
Him: no ma'am, we never
Me: but I bought some last month, it was right here on this self
Him: (sniggering) no ma'am, we never sell, you mix up with nother store.
Three months later, in the same store, on the same shelf, the same guy
Me: Aah, you have printer paper now!
Him:Of course ma'am, we always have
Me: er, no you didn't have just a few months back
Him: Ma'am, you is confused we alway have! He then laughed.
I stopped going shopping off the compound in the end - I love to sew, but putting up with the cr*p just to buy fabric and thread wasn't worth it. Being shouted at for 'flirting' - out with head scarf off my head - was the least of my worries. I'm pretty independent and feisty, so what 'they' think of me doesn't bother me, but it wore me down constantly being on my guard to be aware of the men and how close they were. If I'd been raped, it would've been MY fault and I would've been in prison. I also stopped taking my DD shopping off camp, she's blonde and beautiful. She attracted too much attention. If we were in a group of 5 or more, the men wouldn't stare so blatantly. I'm not making this up. Any woman is considered 'available' and as a man, you are allowed to stare, follow, rub up to a any you can.

You can't drive anywhere but in your compound. If you have a hospital appointment off camp, you need a taxi. He may turn up, he may not. My DC missed the school bus, I couldn't get any taxi to take them. They had the day off. If you're male, even a small child, of course you can drive! I've seen 8 year olds standing on the pedals to drive great big SUVs. I'm not joking. But hey, women now can ride a bike, but only if they are with a male chaperone and they aren't doing it for work/fun.

The schools may be good, they may not be, all rules are arbitrary anyway. What's a rule for you may not apply to others. Even exam rules, depending on the school, aren't as you'd expect. I found this out just this year with the IGCSEs when 1 boy WASNT disqualified in his maths exam for cheating. That's a British school too. With excellent standards.

I wanted to burn my Abayer as we left, but I made do with dumping it in the bin on the Bahrain side of the causeway.

We were with the 'Best' too - it's like the Golden ticket getting a job with Them, the best housing, the best schools, the best conditions, the best pay. Most guys WANT to work there, but it's like sprinkling poop in glitter and spraying it with fabreeze. It's still poop. Glittery, funny smelling poop, but it's still poop.
It's a rich country, you'd expect it to be like an upgrade on Dubai right? Wrong, it's a mess. Rubbish everywhere, roads poorly maintained. There's nothing to 'see' either really. What there is, heritage wise, is not looked after one bit. Covered in graffiti and litter everywhere.

Almost any other country in the ME is better than Saudi - Iraqs a bit dodgy - we're in Oman now, it feels like I've been left out if jail. I drive where I want, I can go shopping with my daughter and not feel threatened, and I can buy pork if I want. I can even, pay a cheque into my husbands bank account!!!

Sorry, this is a LOT of an essay. But I hope it gives you some insight into Saudi life for an expat.

Oh man, I have to think of something positive to say about Saudi.......

Well, my pelvic floor muscles are really good now. I've had 6 children, so they weren't so great BEFORE Saudi, well, because of the public loos - always carry loo roll and hand sanitiser in your bag - I can 'hold on' for hours!

I think hairylegs had just pretty much summed up why we never went to Saudi when I was growing up, despite my dad having many, and frequent, offers. He went on his own once; was back 4 months later. He always said that he would never return to Saudi or Nigeria, and this was a man who travelled extensively about 3 weeks of 4.

I think you also have to think about the impact growing up somewhere like that can have on your children's outlook. I'd hate my dc to grow up in a society that views women as almost less than human. What kind of message does it send to them to choose to live somewhere like that? The whole mortality of even making the choice to live there wouldn't sit well with me. I wouldn't want to support any society like that and I wouldn't want my children to see me giving the example that it's okay for people to live that way.

Wow thank you so so much-that is all incredibly helpful and has basically just confirmed what I already thought.

I think in DH's eyes its a fantastic opportunity for us to get a huge amount of money behind us...he doesn't see beyond his life over there which to a certain extent he already has because he has the network of friends some Saudi and some Americans (we are British). Its me and the boys who would have to make all the sacrifices and I don't honestly think I could do it.

My main concern beyond all the stuff about living over there is DH's job. At the moment he works in London but travels all over the ME. His company have an office in Abu Dhabi and like I said before he was going to have the opportunity to have a 3 year secondment over there however for various reasons thats not going to happen now. Apart from the fact that life in AD and Dubai would obviously be better than Saudi the thing that was swaying me towards that is that he would still have a job in the uk at the end of it. It would be for 3 years then we could come home-becasue he is working for the same company he job in the uk would still be there for him. Its a completely different company and a completely different job in Saudi so Ive no idea what he could do when he comes home.

Will do some serious reading I think and have a look at those books you've all mentioned. DH thinks Im just being difficult because I don't want to go...its almost become a second home to him because he is there so much that he can't see what it means to me.

Hairylegs...would you mind if I sent you a PM?

I have travelled there on business trips - and have been to all sorts of war torn parts of the world. I would never, ever choose to live in Riyadh.

As a single guy I loved working in Saudi in many ways, though I preferred other middle eastern countries. However remember Riyadh is the capital and therefore one of the strictest, the further east you go the more some rules are relaxed. Within the compound to a great extent as a woman you will be able to live a fairly "normal" life, outside you will be a chattel; you will have to dress as native women do, will have to travel in the women section of buses, male friends will not be able to give you a lift etc etc. Even a simple thing like going shopping can be a complete pain in the backside.

Put it this way, I had the chance to go back to Dhahran to work a few years ago and take the family, even though the tax-free salary was huge we decided that it just wasn't for us. My wife loved the shopping but hated the fact that she had to stand there whilst I haggled, except for a couple of shops where there was a women only section.

Alot of the wives I knew out there were borderline alcoholics as they were so bored all they seemed to do was lay by the pool and drink.

Don't mind at all PM!

My friend is a single woman living and working in Saudi and absolutely loves it. She flies out to Bahrain or Abu Dhabi most weekends and seems to have a whale of a time. The compounds are supposed to be amazing and from the photos they certainly look that way. I would go myself. The thing is though is there's that slight risk of something going wrong and if it does it's about as bad as it can be I think.

When the best thing about any place is getting out - I know most Saudis go anywhere but Saudi at every opportunity - it tells you all you need to know.
Have a look at the compounds online, just google them, there are some lovely ones. Saudi Aramco are the probably the most Googled/photographed. Most look like resorts I suppose, but then they need to be good to make up for all you have to put up with.
Someone said to me imagine two pots that are yours, in one you put all the awful stuff about anywhere, in the other, all the good. When the bad is outweighing the good, leave.
It is a great chance to save for whatever you want, but if you're spending instead of saving, it's not good.

What line of work is your DH in?

Yes I thought of looking at the compounds...I imagine the pictures will make them look amazing but Im all too aware that they do not tell the whole story.

Ive messaged you btw...It probably won't make much sense cause Im rambled a bit.

DH works in Aviation. Its a bit more complicated than that but its basically Aviation!

The most beautiful place in the world is nothing more than a prison if you cannot freely go between it and everywhere else. :(

From the age of 2 til an adult. my lovely dad lived in Riyadh. But never once did my Mum ever consider taking us out to join him. He went on such a lucrative contract in 1973 with the sole aim of earning enough money to pay off the mortgage. 2 years was all it would take. I subsequently spent the rest of my life sharing him with Saudi, til he died.
He grew up with the Princes who then became King and senior Ministers. What was there not for him to love?
Financially as a family we did benefit, hugely.
As an adult i also worked for the Royal family, though thankfully based in UK. They are not representative of the society that they reign.
My DH was offered a highly lucrative contract working within the Kingdom, all we saw where pound signs. My Fathers words of advice spoke loudly, he told my DH he would be a fool, he said DH would be blinded by everything but morals. he actually went so far as to block my DH from ever entering the Kingdom.
And this advice was from a man who became one of the most important western men within Saudi.
Don't for one moment be sucked in by the £ signs

I should also say that I have worked in various countries, the only two that the passengers cheered when the pilot announced we had left their airspace were the Falklands and Saudi Arabia.

I wouldn't. My mum was in Qatar for years and she hated that. Awful traffic, stifling heat, huge hypocrisy ...

Another thing, even if your husband works in Saudi, doesn't mean you have to. I knew quite a few people - two are pilots too - who work in Saudi, but their families live in Bahrain, Dubai and Holland.

Another option for you.

Hi OP. I haven't been to Saudi, but I live in Egypt and many of our Egyptian relatives live in Riyadh. Without exception they all hate it, and these are veiled Muslim women used to putting up with harrassment and traffic chaos etc. They are there because there is no work here and to secure a future for their children.

I would question whether this is a good opportunity for your boys. Outside of school and the compound, what will you do for fun as a family? Where will they play sports? Parks and country walks are not an option.
You can't go out alone, no cinemas or theatres, even many restaurants are segregated. You will probably be watching a lot of Oprah.

On the other hand, it does sound like a great opportunity for your DH. In your position I would arrange for him to go alone for a fixed period, say 2 years. Good luck!